We Look Down on Child Free Ideology and We’re Not Sorry

I wish Wendy had more time to write. She has quite a bit to say about family life, and she enjoys encouraging other moms while she raises our 12 children still at home. She threw an article at me last week and said, “Respond to this for me,” and went back to mothering.

How's that Child Free ideology working out for ya?

How’s that Child Free ideology working out for ya?

And wow, what an article. The author, Amy Glass, puts it out there in the title: “I Look Down On Young Women With Husbands And Kids And I’m Not Sorry“. The article is shocking. Glass needs to “hold back the vomit” whenever she sees a woman like Wendy. This isn’t an intellectual, live-and-let-live exposé on the familial social structure. It’s a frontal assault, claiming the superior honor is a working woman rather than “just a mom,” even calling motherhood “unimportant” and “stupid.”

You may read the article yourself, but here are the words in a nutshell:

Do people really think that a stay at home mom is really on equal footing with a woman who works and takes care of herself? There’s no way those two things are the same…If women can do anything, why are we still content with applauding them for doing nothing?…You will never have the time, energy, freedom or mobility to be exceptional if you have a husband and kids…Doing laundry will never be as important as being a doctor or an engineer or building a business. This word play is holding us back.

You’d think this article wouldn’t get any traction, but it’s a week old and currently soaring at 225,000 Facebook shares.

This reminds me of the TIME magazine article from August 2013, “Having It All Without Having Children.” It was a promotion of the “Child Free” movement, of which I posted a handy rebuttal. These articles aren’t just intellectually articulating the childless life; they’re throwing down and insisting a life free of children is something to aspire to.

They’re making the case that a world without children might just be a good idea.

These articles (at least Glass’s) attack mothers, but my response is not attacking childless couples. Please allow me this distinction: childlessness is one thing, and there is nothing inherently wrong with it. Wendy and I are friends with many folks who are without children, and every couple wrestles with the idea of waiting or going for another (or even their first). This was the premise of our book Love Another Child, an honest attempt to wrestle through the thoughts surrounding a couple’s decision.

But “Child Free” is a ideological movement that encourages the opposite: don’t have children. “Be free of them”: Child Free. Call me a radical if you wish, but I dare say this is one of the most harmful ideas on the planet. When you consider it fully, it’s insane.

Let me be clear: childlessness itself is not insane. The Child Free ideology is. All of us are childless for a portion of our lives, and we were sane at the time. The article Wendy gave me — and the TIME article, to a lesser extent — attacks motherhood, and I think the idea that motherhood is crazy is itself crazy.

Do you think “insane” or “crazy” goes a bit too far? I have some thoughts on why I think this is fair, and I invite you to go with me here. I challenge the Child Free movement on three ideological levels: (1) logically, (2) individually and (3) culturally.

1. Logically, Child Free Breaks Down

These Child Free authors insist that they do not like children in general, that they wouldn’t enjoy children, that they wouldn’t be good parents, and so on and so forth. They give reason after reason insisting that children would add no value to their lives.

Parents like me get accused of calling these folks names: self-absorbed, selfish, self-centered, and the like. The TIME article preferred the term “self-realized” to explain Child Free aspirations. But insisting Child Free is better than children — especially “having it all without having children” — is quite definitely naive.

How is it at all logically possible to insist that you would not enjoy that which you have never had?

Forgive me for name-calling, but is it fair to say this view is childish? It’s like insisting to hate a food that you have never tried. Think about it: these people are insisting that children would never bring them anything other than whatever bad things they conjured up in their head.

I’ve been accused of not fully understanding the childless life. Hold it right there: that is not logical, either. It is logical for parents to insist that children have matured our previous “self-realized” lives. Most parents will agree that children made them much less self-absorbed, selfish, self-centered, and the like. How can they judge this fairly? Because they used to be childless. A sense of wonder overcomes the new parent, one that can only be understood through experience.

To insist you understand, now that is illogical. We parents do not believe them, and they sound childish the more they insist. They should stop insisting that they know what it is like to receive the blessing of their own child into their life.

If you are one of these Child Free people, please, stop insisting that you are more “self-realized” than parents. You are standing on that side of a door that you are choosing not to walk through, so stop telling those of us on the other side what we’re experiencing.

But here’s a thought: maybe start listening to those parents on the other side of the door. Many of them insist that parenting life is much, much different than what they originally thought when they had no children of their own. I know parents who regret their earlier choices. You may grow to regret your decisions. You may come to realize that you were never less “self-realized” than when you were Child Free.

2. Individually, Child Free Has Problems

Perhaps you’re not ready to have children. That’s fine, and Wendy and I will try not to be an annoyance. We just can’t help ourselves sometimes; we really like family life. So deciding when to bring children into the world — yes, a big decision, no doubt — is one you should come to resolution about.

Just don’t get pigeon-holed into silly promises you can’t keep. “Never say never,” they say. Children may be in your future, be open to that, and let the adventure of life unfold before you.

If you go the giddy Child Free way (i.e. I will never, ever have children), you may get your wish, and your life will end with depressing consequence.

Let me tell you a true story of a couple Wendy and I met in Pennsylvania. We were asked to speak at a private event, and after we had done our job earlier that day, we decided to grab a bite to eat at Applebees. It was a busy night, but we didn’t have any kids with us, so we decided to wait it out for a table. Sixty minutes later, our table was called.

Wendy had just started a conversation with a retired woman and her husband who had arrived a few minutes before our table was called. So we invited them to join us for dinner. It was spontaneous and fun (why not?) and they gladly jumped to the front of the line with us.

We got to know each other. They were both retired teachers who had one daughter who lived in another state. When we shared with them that we had 16 children, they got a bit vulnerable. They shared with us that they had one child, and that one child — now married and in her thirties — had no desire to have children.

The couple was very honest about their disappointment. They even admitted to depression, loneliness and immense sadness. “I want a grandchild so badly,” the gentleman said, tears in his eyes.

Child Free or not, this should give you pause.

There is hard truth here: you will grow old. Your days of travel will become burdensome, your days of work will retire, your friends and family will die, and your life will sunset. Perhaps you will have your mate — as our new friends at Applebees had each other — but that union, too, will end.

Life will come full circle, and you will most likely realize that life was what mattered most of all.

Wendy and I attract testimonies like this all the time. People constantly tell us how regretful they are for choosing childlessness over whatever (travel, career, money, etc.). It’s a life theme that should not be so easily brushed aside — like these Child Free authors do. Instead, you should seriously consider children during your childbearing years.

3. Culturally, Child Free Is Catastrophic

The Child Free choice is similar to other social choices: you likely won’t experience much societal drain. There are still plenty of couples willing to have children. And then there are some like my family who are having a ball.

It’s ironic, really. The Child Free folks think Wendy and I are crazy. I cannot emphasize enough how grateful we are for each and every one of our 16 children. I am honestly saddened when someone says they do not want to have children. They’re missing out a most excellent life.

The world will go on if you decide not to have children. But if everyone decided to not have children, all hell would break loose.

This should seem rather obvious, don’t you think? The human race would cease to exist. I know, Child Free folks think that’s absurd, and perhaps it is. But it doesn’t take much for us to see demographic harms. Falling below the replacement rate — which is happening in many parts of the world today — brings about catastrophic outcomes that are horrific. Aging populations, overburdened social structures, failing economies, depressed growth — it is inescapable when the population shrinks.

The Child Free ideology encourages a cultural shift that would result in world devastation.

Let me put it to you this way. Throwing a water bottle into a lake isn’t going to rot out the lake. However, we choose not to litter because if everyone littered, it would rot out the lake. The drain on the environment would put us out of whack.

This is why I say Child Free ideology is crazy. It’s like encouraging a Littering Day. What if I brushed off the harms of littering in my marketing, researched pro-littering resources to encourage others to be fine with littering? Don’t judge me just because I litter, I’d rebut. “I don’t clean up very well, it’s just how I am.”

Or welfare. You can stand in a line and fill out forms for state assistance. You can even cheat a little and no one will notice. The United States economy will survive, and you will get your welfare check without any visible consequence.

But what if everyone soaked the system like this guy? Party up, dude, surf the waves, pick up your welfare card along with the chicks on the beach. If anyone is a sign of a failing society and a crumbling economy, it is this guy living it up in Hotel California.

Be Free of ‘Child Free’ Thinking

Wendy and I don’t look down on people for having no children, but we can’t help ourselves with the ideology that these more radical “Child Free” folks espouse. It’s a strange anti-people perspective that deserves this rebuttal. We actually see little “freedom” for those — like these authors — who are knotted up with the idea that their lives will be better without children.

From my perspective (privileged husband to an amazing mother of 16) I think Wendy is Wonder Woman. Her ideology — sacrifice, affection, giving spirit and heart of love — brings the fullest life. And she considers her calling to be most free.

Are you a debater? Join me in Colorado in July for the Training Minds Camp!

Please note: I reserve the right to delete comments that are offensive or off-topic.

  • Being childfree for many isn’t an “ideology,” nor is it something many childfree try to encourage others to do. Instead, it – like many things – is a personal life choice. “I do not want to have or raise children. Therefore, I won’t.” If anything, what many childfree DO do is try to make others understand that they shouldn’t ever feel pressured to have children, nor should they feel strange or guilty if they don’t want them. It’s really very simple. – Sylvia D. Lucas, author of “No Children, No Guilt.” http://www.sylviadlucas.com

    • Jennifer Alexander

      Sylvia, no one is raining on your childless life. If you are happy with your choice, I hope you continue to be happy with it. However, this article is in response to the attack Ms. Glass made on young women with husbands and children. If someone doesn’t have any children, what right do they have to look down on us and deem us subpar? As I stated in my post, I lived the childless life (33 years). I was happy being me. But here is the most simple fact-my body was made to carry a child. ALL WOMEN’s bodies are! If someone wants to go against the grain and be mad about it when asked, that is indeed their guilt, not pressure.

      • Where did I say I was being attacked? I simply said that the childfree decision isn’t necessarily an “ideology” (but that’s certainly a dramatic way to identify it). I don’t agree with attacking people with children (or whether someone chooses to be a stay at home parent, for that matter) any more than I agree with attacking the childfree as a larger group. This post you say is a reply to Ms. Glass addresses the childfree collectively, not Ms. Glass individually. As a childfree person (used instead of “childless” because it communicates choice, not circumstance), I’m responding. And all women’s bodies are not made to have children – any woman who can’t bear children will probably tell you that.

        • Jennifer Alexander

          First off, the article was in response to Ms. glass’ rant. It wouldn’t have been written, had she not ruffled some feathers. Second, all women’s bodies were made to bear children. I can not speak for genetics and such. If it is out of your control to bear children naturally, then there is always option to bear children through adoption. This whole movement of selfishness and “I am woman, I have choice”, makes me gag! If you come to an article advocating motherhood, and you want to respond for your warped cause, don’t expect silence. Choice or not, you are “childless”. How very sad.

          • But – I don’t HAVE a cause. That’s my whole point. And I don’t think you know me well enough to make any kind of judgments about my happiness levels. (Aside:Why do you care whether women have children? In what way does it affect you, and why do you assume it’s “very sad” that I don’t have what I don’t want? I’m genuinely curious.)

            • Jennifer Alexander

              I’m sorry, I thought you authored a book called “No Children, No Guilt”. No cause?
              And I care about motherhood because every day I go out with my 3 children, and young women come up to me and tell me, “Oh, I could never do what you do!”
              Is motherhood a dying breed of women? I pray that it isn’t. And when you write a book advocating that not having children is nothing to be ashamed of or guiltily about, you promote a people of “ME FIRST”. How is that not sad? To never know the feeling of carrying a child in your womb or if unable to, to mother a child who doesn’t have a mother. We have so many children who need! You tell others it’s okay to never open that door. Well, it’s not okay.

              • Tiffany Gabriel

                And YOU insisting that they open that door is okay? It’s a two way street! Let women make their OWN decisions. How can you not see how contradictory you are being?

                • Jennifer Alexander

                  I insist women stop making selfish decisions in the name of choice.

                  • Tiffany Gabriel

                    You’re against women having choices?

                    • Jennifer Alexander

                      When it affects others, YES!

                    • Hilary Brewster

                      So…no more voting for us women, then! PHEW.

                    • Tiffany Gabriel

                      So woman shouldn’t vote because it affects leadership. Or call to order a pizza because it affects the person who has to make it. Or go to see a doctor cause it affects his schedule. You literally, make no sense.

                    • Skippy

                      How does it affect you that I don’t have children?

                    • Tiffany Gabriel

                      Oh careful Skippy, she will say you are affecting your spouse (even if they share your views) you are affecting your parents (who may not care) and you are affecting DA WORLD cause your precious baby might be the one to cure cancer or something.

                    • Tamika

                      How does a woman choosing not to have children affect children that aren’t born yet? They don’t exist!

                    • Mary Kidd

                      The only way any choices we make would NOT affect anyone else is if we were all hermits.

                    • Annie Neubauer

                      Women choosing not to have children affects WHO??

                    • Annie Neubauer

                      Please don’t ever vote again, your choice affects others!!!

                    • Kaitlyn Bergin

                      How do the choices I make affect anyone else? You don’t know me, I don’t know you. My choices have absolutely no impact on your life just like your choice to have children didn’t affect me. What a silly comment.

                  • Hilary Brewster

                    Selfishness means having something and not sharing it. I have a whole pizza, I won’t give you a slice. How is NOT having kids being selfish? How am I harming YOU by not having children? It WOULD be selfish to have a kid and then ACT like I didn’t, but to not have it in the first place is not, by definition, selfish.

                  • LittleKnives

                    Too bad your opinions have no bearing on my life. I’m going back to Paris this weekend, just because I can, to stand atop the Eiffel Tower and eat crepes and drink wine, selfishly, without and brats clutching to my pant leg or in my uterus, kicking me in the ribs and bladder! Hurray for being childfree!

              • Not every book is a cause. (And, come on – having children is very much “Me first.” Would you have had them if you didn’t want them?) There are many women who don’t want children, but feel a lot of pressure thanks in large part to people like you who judge them. “No Children, No Guilt” doesn’t promote a cause or denigrate parenthood; rather, it communicate that it’s fine, and not unnatural or weird or anything else, to not want kids, and that no one should decide for you whether you have kids but YOU, the person who would have them. It’s not a cause, it’s a comfort.

                You don’t get to dictate what people want. It’s not up to you to decide what should make people happy, or what women should do with their wombs. Are you this aggressive in the company of men? Do you try to push them into having kids and using their penises they way they’re supposed to – to make children?

                • Jennifer Alexander

                  I get to speak my mind something that’s wrong, and I did that. 🙂

                  • Lance Blackstone

                    Well now that you’ve spoken your mind – and shown us all how vacuous it is – please go back to rearing those children. Start by finding them some better role models than their mother.

                    Have as wonderful a day as you can possibly muster!

                    • I really feel unspeakably sad for her children, especially if she has daughters.

                  • Barbara Smith

                    What’s wrong with people having their own opinions and making their own decisions? Why is it your business if some people choose not to have children?

                • Overtaxed

                  As many have said, there is no more selfish act that a human can commit than to bring a child into this world. What makes me think my genes are so special that they deserve to be passed on? Why should I replicate myself at the expense of others? And, of course, if you’re a greenie, you can drive a Prius, hell, you can ride a bike everywhere, and you’ll NEVER make up for the carbon footprint of bringing a child into this world.

              • Annie Neubauer

                “Me First”? Get a grip. Do you know how many Childfree people volunteer, are teachers, firefighters, doctors, take care of their elderly parents? Obviously not.

                • Larry_Sanger

                  Childless, or “Childfree”? There seems to be a difference. Before I had my boys, I wasn’t “Childfree,” I don’t think.

              • Heart’s Compass

                My womb just cringed and tried to shrivel away just at the though of having a parasite growing inside it. I’ve been through the first stages of pregnancy and the thought makes me sick. I would abort (again) so fast if my birth control somehow failed, and have no regrets. There is nothing wrong with putting myself first when it comes to my life, and it’s not selfish when no one is hurt by my decision. (and no a little life-less bundle of cells is not a human that can be influenced)

                • Larry_Sanger

                  Let me preface this by saying that I’m moderately pro-abortion. I kind of like the law as it is now, and don’t fault anyone morally for getting an early-term abortion.

                  But good lord, what is wrong with the world that apparently mature adults are now emboldened to call growing babies—or fetuses, if you prefer—”parasites”? Another potential human being growing inside you is not a parasite. For one thing, actual parasites are a different species that originates from outside of the body and invade it. Sperm originates from outside your body, but the sperm is not what you’re claiming is a “parasite.” Your body deliberately, purposely grows what you rather disgustingly call a “parasite,” as if you had nothing to do with it.

                  When your rhetoric becomes so unhinged that you call the very beginning stages of human beings “parasites,” you’ve definitely lost the argument.

              • LittleKnives

                If the childfree mentality makes you gag, that’s fine. Looking at pregnant women covered in stretch marks, and breast feeding women, or women with spit up on them makes ME gag.

          • TattooedLittleMiss

            And had he simply addressed the ridiculous assertions made by Ms Glass, I’d believe that. Instead, he decided to claim that being childfree is harmful and destructive, ultimately lowering himself to Ms Glass’ level, instead of finding the intellectual and moral high ground.

            And yes, when someone tells me that a personal and very private decision about my body and my life is wrong, destructive, and selfish, I’m going to be a little bit peeved, whether it’s the choice to have surgery, get a tattoo, have kids, go to college, or travel the world. My father uses astoundingly similar tactics to attempt to convince me to give him grandchildren that my grandmother used when trying to dissuade me to go to college out of state. Mostly along the lines of, “If you don’t listen to me, you’re an immoral slut” and “but think of your poor mother!” Who, I ought to add, supported me whole-heartedly in both choices.

          • Choice makes you gag? You are the one who is sad.

      • Tamika

        I hate to break your bubble, but not all women can, in fact, carry children in their wombs. Some are infertile and others are too sick to live through or have a fetus live through pregnancy and birth.

        • Heart’s Compass

          and some of us would rather die than bear a child, meaning that we physically can’t carry a child either (on a technicality of course).

          • Tamika

            Right, but that wasn’t the argument here.

      • Annie Neubauer

        She can’t look down on people with kids but you can make endless statements that Childfree are unhappy and selfish?

      • ALL WOMEN’s bodies are!

        Wrong. Not all women have the right parts. Hell, some women have a penis! (And some men have a uterus and ovaries and a vagina.) Your biology-based gender-essentialism is not only anti-woman, it’s anti-human and very much transphobic.

        • janey

          Hi Kitty! (I know you from STFU.)

  • Jennifer Alexander

    I seriously did not know how to respond to Amy Glass’ article. I was one of the 225k mothers who shared this warped view of mothers/wives on FB. I applaud your response. You brought very thought provoking questions to the table. I lived the childless life as we all do, and there was nothing better than crossing over into motherhood. Something Ms. Glass knows nothing about. My life is much more rewarding than making almost $100k a year. So when it came time to make the choice to stay home with my toddlers, it was a no brainer! I do not miss working outside of the home because I work inside my home. I invested in family, and my stock has taken off. In the end, I will have 3 lives to look at that I helped blossom. What a blessing!

    • Thanks Jennifer. I appreciate you jumping into the conversation.

      • Jennifer Alexander

        Thanks Chris! Jump I did. Might be behind on laundry now though! Lol This world is becoming more anti-family every day. Some folks are so “pro-choice”, they fail to see it. Kudos to you and your wife!

        • Jelly Beans

          I’m not anti-family, I’m just childfree. I love my family!

        • TattooedLittleMiss

          Family has definitions beyond “two parents with children.” Just because mine doesn’t and will never look like yours does not mean I do not have one or are against them.

        • badmoodpixie

          My husband and i ARE a family. Children are not what makes a family.

        • Anna

          That you could think a mentally ill drunk like myself should’ve given up her life to raise noisy brats is pathetic. I love that I was smart enough to know that kids were one big hassle I didn’t need & as I’ve always been single knew didn’t need a mother like me

    • Annie Neubauer

      I’m Childfree and I don’t make 100k a year. Instead I do work that is fulfilling.

    • Overtaxed

      ” So when it came time to make the choice to stay home with my toddlers,
      it was a no brainer! I do not miss working outside of the home because I
      work inside my home.”

      I’m going to put this as gently as possible. Let me draw an analogy.

      My wife and I, let’s say, both make 100K a year. I decide I’d like to buy a Ferrari (about what a child costs today to the age of 18) and stay home so that I can wax/polish/maintain and love my Ferrari.

      Would I be happy? Ugh.. Yeah, of course I’d be happy. I’d have what I want (a Ferrari) and, although it would be a ton of work, I’d enjoy doing it. If you weren’t happy having a child and staying home to take care of (play) with it, you’d need to have your head examined. Women seem to act as if it’s a “big sacrifice” to give up their jobs and stay home with their children. If it is, don’t have children, please, for the sake of the rest of us!

  • Skippy

    I do not subscribe to a childfree “ideology.” My husband and I just happen to enjoy our life the way it is–without children. I’m happy for couples who are enjoying their children. Just respect the idea that what brings you happiness is not the same thing that brings me and many others happiness.

    • Jennifer Alexander

      You’ve never had children, so how do you know it wouldn’t make you happy?

      • Skippy

        I’m already happy.

        • Jennifer Alexander

          I didn’t say you were devoid of happiness Skippy. But understand this, you will never have the same level of happiness that comes with being a mother. You may dislike the statement, however it’s a fact.

          • Skippy

            No, that is an opinion. It may be a fact for you, and I’m genuinely glad that you have found what makes you the happiest. But understand this, not all women have the same desires. My level of happiness is most certainly at the same level as yours. I’ve just found mine in a different way than you have.

            • Jennifer Alexander

              Why don’t you tell that to your mothers ladies. I’m sure they’d love to hear that a childless life I equal to that of their own.

              • Skippy

                My mom (my dad too) is open-minded enough to be happy with my choice. They both taught me to think for myself and not depend on others for my own fulfillment.

              • bob

                Actually my parents always actively encouraged me to never have kids. My dad said it was a real financial burden and while he loves me it is not worth jeopardizing my financial future for a child. My mother told me when I was in college that she was glad I am out of the house. She told me she was honestly tired of being a mom and having to emotionally put someone else before herself. She is proud of what I have accomplished and is always there to talk to but she is happy I am out of the house. Perhaps you will never get to that point but all of us are built differently.

              • Annie Neubauer

                My mother is happy I’m Childfree. Not only am I making my own choice (something she couldn’t do in the 60s) but I’m happy and following my dreams.

              • Victoria Stevens

                I have told my mom this. She is more then happy with my choice to not have children. It is very judgmental and closed minded of you to assume that our parents are disappointed in our choice. I am so tired of hearing about how you will never know happiness or love until you have a child. I experience happiness and love on a regular basis.

                What happens if I have a child and I don’t like my choice to be a parent? What happens if it doesn’t bring me happiness? I know many women with grown children who, if they could do it again, would not have had children.

              • TattooedLittleMiss

                My mother has always firmly believed that. Most of her best friends for most of my life didn’t have or want children. She’s thrilled with my choice because she sees her friends now, as grandparents, being called upon to drive around, babysit, and spend money on grandchildren when they should be enjoying the free time, money, and adventure retirement has to offer. She prefers my cat, just like I do and has often said that had I been anything other than the quiet, relatively self-contained and independent child I was, she wouldn’t have enjoyed motherhood at all.

              • whatajoke

                my mother/family supports my CF decision; I hope your kids grow up and decide to be CF.

              • FLVAGirl

                My mom was perfectly fine with my choice to not have children. She understood it was not the life I wanted. In fact, no one in my family felt the need to pressure me to do something I did not want to do, and that would make me unhappy.

                Your problem is that you think you’re better than others because of the choices you and they made. Me? I know that my choice is right for me and I respect those who have made other choices. You want kids, have them and are happy about it? Good for you. Great in fact. I’m glad you’re happy with your choice. But you aren’t happy for me, are you? That makes you the smaller person.

                My choice not to have children is my choice alone and does not affect you in anyways. And yet, I pay school taxes for schools my nonexistent children will never use. I pay taxes for welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, etc. A social safety net that I can never use if I fall in hard times. And yet, I won’t have children simply so I can take part of those benefits. It’s unfair I pay into something I cannot take out of, but I still pay.

                As for my mother, she made her choice to have children. Her choice. And yet, growing up with her as a single parent, as my father passed away young, I know having two kids made her life so much harder than it would otherwise have been. I know she had thought about the life she could have had but didn’t. The fact is, she sucked it up and did the best she could. Were I in her shoes, I would have sucked it up as well.

                But, the great thing is, that in a free country in 2016, I don’t have to have children I don’t want. Had my mom chosen to be child free, how is that of any consequence to me? I wouldn’t exist, so I certainly wouldn’t be aware, so it would not matter.

                Part of being an adult is growing up and realizing that your way is the right way for you alone. Some people will agree with you, some people will pursue different choices. It’s not your business how anyone else chooses to live your life.

                Btw, considering the billions of people on earth, your choice of reproduction is not special or magical. Maybe to you it is, but in society it is not. Millions have done the same before you. Millions of people and animals have given birth and raised young.

                And yet, one needs only to browse the news on a daily basis to see perfect examples of horrible parents and people who should have never had kids. Parents who starve and abuse. Parents who murder. Being a parent makes you no more moral, better or special than anyone else. There are plenty of parents who are awful people, and there are plenty of wonderful child free people.

              • Mary Kidd

                What my mother wanted isn’t what my daughter wants. It’s called “making a choice”. Something everyone is entitled to, regardless of your choices/opinions.

              • Meri Da

                Jennifer Alexander

                Skippy

                3 years ago

                Why don’t you tell that to your mothers ladies. I’m sure they’d love
                to hear that a childless life I equal to that of their own.

                now you’re assuming that everyone gets along with mummy dearest…&/or assuming that everyone has mothers.

                news flash: not all mothers are good. some are horrid bitches on drugs & others kill their own children justt because.

                casey anthony was a FANTASTIC mother…..erm……right?

                also all mothers die….not all of us even have mothers anymore.

            • FLVAGirl

              Jennifer needs everyone to make the same choices in life that she has because she needs to feel that she did the right thing. Most likely, she wonders what her life would’ve been if she had made a different choice, so she doesn’t want anyone else to have the choices she herself bypassed.

              A truly happy person who is content with their life choices would never presume to dictate to others that their way is the only way and that they are somehow more happy or special than other people.

              Jennifer obviously has low self-esteem and needs to force her ideology on others so that she can feel validated for the choices she made.

              Skippy, I’m sure you know that you can’t argue with someone like Jennifer, who has the “my way is the only way” mentality.

          • Banner

            That statement most certainly is not fact. It’s an opinion…your opinion.

            • Jennifer Alexander

              Motherhood rocks!!!!

              • Banner

                I’m glad you enjoy it. That’s a good thing. But to assume everyone else has to (or does) feel the same way is ridiculous.

                • Jennifer Alexander

                  To assume your happiness is equal to that of a mothers happiness is ridiculous!

                  • Is it important to you that someone win the happiness battle? Can’t we all be equally happy, and be happy for all of us being happy?

                    • Jennifer Alexander

                      I am not going for the happiness of the year award. I am replying to Skippy’s comment that life with children can be as good as life without children. There is no comparison! I do not respect the idea that different things make different people happy. Children are not baseball cards!

                    • Tamika

                      You’re intellectually lazy. Purposely.

                    • Skippy

                      Jennifer, this baseball cards comment makes no sense whatsoever.

                    • Tiffany Gabriel

                      Different things make different people happy every single day of every single year. Are you actually that obtuse?

                      We all have different tv shows we like, different foods we eat, different people we socialize with, different careers and jobs, different homes, and different lovers.

                      Are you suggesting unless everyone prescribes to YOUR notion of happiness (with no differences) they are not happy?

                    • Jelly Beans

                      So, using your logic, if baseball makes you happy and I don’t like baseball, obviously I’m not happy because I don’t like something you like.

                      Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

                    • Annie Neubauer

                      I guess all the infertile women of the world will never find true happiness.

                    • Barbara Smith

                      How can you not respect common sense? Of course different things make different people happy! I don’t know what you mean by your reference to baseball cards.

                    • Anna

                      I’ve never a maternal feeling in my life. I’m nearly 50! I’d rather have
                      no kids than interact kids as they bore me. The dull games you have to
                      play with them & stupid tv shows they watch & it’s either
                      letting kids have what they want or a tantrum. If I had to hear kid tv
                      in my house every day I’d be suicidal & being bi-polar have been
                      suicidal many times. Better that I never had them than kids have a
                      mother like me. And if motherhood is so wonderful and fulfilling why do
                      some mums abuse, torture or even murder their little darling like Tina
                      & Floyd Wimes? Some people should never be allowed to have if
                      they’re only going to abuse them.
                      .

                    • Mandi

                      “I do not respect the idea that different things make different people happy.”

                      Then you’re an illogical person who has yet to grasp the fact that different folks prefer different strokes. You might never understand that. And it’s OK! You don’t have to understand. You’re happy with motherhood and that’s a good thing. A happy mother taking the best possible care to raise her children right – we need more of those. And maybe, just maybe, the key to having better mothers (and fathers) is to allow some people to say, “You know what? I don’t think that’s for me.”

                      I just hope that if one of your children grows up to be a childfree individual, you’ll give them the same love and support that you did when they were in your home.

                    • janey

                      Well at least we’ve got that settled. Here I was driving my Manny Ramirez card around in his car seat. Thanks for that.

                    • Did you really just say you don’t understand that different things make different people happy? Did that just happen? My mind is blown.

                    • LittleKnives

                      Some men like being tied up and kicked in the testicles by a woman in high heels and leather… It makes them very happy. For other men, it would be torture!

                  • Banner

                    Are you listening to yourself? You don’t make any sense! What is so hard to understand about the fact that different things make different people happy, and that what makes YOU happy wouldn’t necessarily make ME happy, and vice versa?

                  • Jelly Beans

                    I feel sorry for you, sweetheart. Just because I don’t have kids doesn’t mean I don’t have a life full of joy and happiness 🙂

                    Remember to pass on that same positive thinking to your kids!

                  • What an ignorant statement. Every study proves that children do NOT add to happiness.

                  • Annie Neubauer

                    I assume your happiness is equal to Childfree is ridiculous.

              • badmoodpixie

                Yeah? Well, keep popping out babies so your life will continue to have meaning for you then. Some of us find fulfillment without wrangling rugrats. And i DO have many years of experience helping to raise children, so i DO know MY life is better without them.

              • Anna

                You really believe what comes out of a vagina is more important than what is in a woman’s brain and soul. I think you’re smarter than that. You would hate to see a woman suicide with Post Natal depression but it happens and your saying that someone like me with suicidal depressions should have had a kid. I would have been utterly stupid to inflict a mentally ill mother on a child. Seen a woman do it and she was a really abusive mom I saw screaming “you’re a fukn idiot & you’ll be a #@$# idiot” is not nice

              • brebay

                Jennifer, Happy people don’t get so defensive about other people’s happiness. They’re too busy enjoying their own life.

              • LittleKnives

                Living in Europe for 3 years and getting to travel and eat in expensive bistros and drink French wine in France and study other cultures and look at paintings and sculptures and architecture that is awe inspiring, and buying fashions that you can’t find in America rocks and I wouldn’t be able to do it if I had children!!!!

          • But if you don’t want children, how can having them possibly make you happy? (Saying “you don’t know you don’t want them if you don’t have them” makes no sense. It would make sense if you were to say, “How do you know you don’t like liver if you’ve never tried it?” because liver would be a total unknown. However, all of us were once children, interacted with other children, and frequently see children. We also see and know people who have children, and have an abundance of written material about raising children. The same “haven’t ever tasted it” ignorance doesn’t exist, or apply.)

            Furthermore, why on earth would you ever try to convince someone who says they don’t want children to have children? Don’t you want the children brought into this world to be brought in by people who truly want – and are prepared to care for – them? Or is the creation of children more important to you than the happiness and fulfillment of the people who would have them and the children, themselves? There’s more to having kids, as I’m sure you know, than “Have one!” There are real lives involved, lives that are more important individually than some idea that “everyone should have kids.” This might give you some insight: http://kristenjtsetsi.com/2013/12/30/baby-pressure/ (Disclosure: Sylvia Lucas is my pseudonym.This article I’m linking you to was written under my real name.)

            • Jennifer Alexander

              I am not trying to convince anyone of anything except that this whole movement is a selfish one. No one can fix ignorance. By all means, let’s teach this ideology to our children and not have a future generation!

              • How is not choosing to have kids selfish? (I’m passing by the “not have a future generation” bit, because plenty of people will continue to decide to have children. Even if they don’t actually decide, but just toss up their hands and say, “Well, I guess it’s just what I’m supposed to do!”)

                Selfishness is negatively impacting another person in the pursuit of your own happiness. Is someone being hurt by all of the children not being born? When is stopping having children NOT selfish? How many more are you going to have? Will you be selfish when you decide you have enough? How do you KNOW it’s enough? What if someone says, “Oh, you’ll never know happiness like the kind you’ll experience when you have JUST ONE MORE child”?

                Did you adopt as well as have your own kids? Many don’t. Some actually call that kind of behavior selfish, ignoring the already-existing children who need a happy, loving home and instead creating another one.

                My point is that tossing around the word “selfish” is dangerous. It can very easily be tossed back. (And the use of it with regard to the childfree is erroneous.)

                • Jennifer Alexander

                  Oh you table turner, you! I am free to have as many children as my husband and I can afford. You promote a culture of it being okay not to even have one “if you feel like it”. Selfish! Having children and being able to afford to have them is far from that, my dear. And my husband and I will adopt children as soon as my oldest is school age. Laws prohibit us from foster/adoptions care while we have 3 small children. I am far from being a selfish, childless woman. I am asking others to do their part, so we have a hope and a future.

                  • badmoodpixie

                    7 billion people in the world is more than enough for a future. If you’ve had more than 2 kids, you are just contributing to overpopulation. Now THAT is selfish. Congrats on having a functioning uterus like most other women on the planet, it is really very special.

                  • Barbara Smith

                    It is perfectly okay not to have even one! People have many choices in life. Having children is one of them. You can call that a culture if you want. It’s just common sense to me.

                  • TattooedLittleMiss

                    No one is calling you selfish, but with a world population rapidly approaching 8 billion, there’s no threat to the future of humanity except extinction by overpopulation. If not contributing to that fate makes me “selfish,” I’m perfectly okay with that.

                  • janey

                    You’re weird.

                • Banner

                  Don’t even bother, Sylvia. This one isn’t smart enough to see there are two sides of every coin. She thinks her way is the only way. Oh, and don’t worry…she’ll be passing that fantastic attitude on to her kids so that’ll be fun. It’s like talking to a brick wall. Don’t waste your breath.

                  • Jennifer Alexander

                    Poor Banner. There aren’t to sides to this. There is only one way. Off to make my children lunch, and get about the rest of my day. It’s been fun ladies! Motherhood rocks!!!

                    • Barbara Smith

                      Everybody needs to figure out their own way. You are entitled to your opinion.

                  • I can’t help but wonder whether her happiness is genuine.

                    • bob

                      It is normally those that are the most insecure with their choices that respond the strongest against other ideas. They are not secure with their choices and the only way they can truly feel secure is if everyone else is doing as they are. If someone dares to question or take a different path they attack with such ferocity not because they truly believe in what they are saying. It is because they start to question their own choices and do not like what the possibilities may be. It is easier to be happy with your choice when everyone else is doing what you are doing as you are less likely to have questions raised as to if you are truly happy. So is she happy? Perhaps…perhaps but is she insecure about her happiness? Most certainly. The people most satisfied with their choices tend to be those willing to debate and offers arguments and counterarguments. Saying I am right and you are wrong and that is that does not provide a strong base argument. Anyway that is just my two cents about the subject. Perhaps I am wrong but I doubt her response would be anything other than not uh you don’t understand. .

                    • Jennifer Alexander

                      All you’ll ever do is wonder I guess. Have the best day you can muster!

                    • bob

                      Here you can see she is feeling attacked and insecure. She chooses to respond to the easier argument of the two posted above. Clearly as both Sylvia and I responded approximately an hour ago and she responded 40 minutes ago she saw both comments. Rather than respond to the comment that would bring her out of her comfort zone she has chosen to respond to the response that is easier to respond to for her. She is trying to deescalate the situation by responding now with a positive comment but! If you read her first sentence she is still responding with somewhat of an attack. That while we can never know her and how she feels she can know our feelings like she has seemed to state in earlier arguments. Now this raises an interesting point that she still feels morally above our responses due to trying to graciously bow out of the conversation with the positive at the end while maintaining the moral high ground at the start of the sentence. Now she is not responding to my comment below Sylvia’s comment that she must have seen because it makes her feel uncomfortable. She rather maintain her air of superiority and leave while the leaving is good rather than get down in the muck of a debate she can’t hope to win without looking at the issue from an opposing point of view that causes her discomfort to examine.

                    • Bob, you should let it rest. It’s a cheap shot, for one, but more importantly, it’s a double bind. YOU are getting worked up about this, and to follow your logic, that just shows your insecurity.

                    • bob

                      I just like a good debate what can I say. I don’t appreciate the fact that she has provided that her point of view is the only way and refuses to acknowledge another point of view only due to the fact she is uncomfortable with it. Rather than confront this point of view that makes her uncomfortable and look at it objective she shuts it down and stomps her foot saying “No No No I know better than the rest of you and if you don’t accept it I refuse to listen.” I am more than open to debate about an issue like this. I love to hear why children are great and why you like them. What I can’t stand is when you stomp your foot and refuse to acknowledge a different point of view being just as valid as yours. So yes perhaps it is a cheap shot but I refuse to allow someone to get away with her attitude without a response pointing it out.

                    • janey

                      It’s such a fortunate thing that the world has you to take care of such matters.

                    • bob

                      And I appreciate what you’re trying to say. Really I do. I just want you to understand that while I am willing to tackle an issue head on and get into the thick of it she doesn’t seem to be willing to debate it. I rather she just present it as an opinion rather than the factual air it is coming off as. I know I am probably just as guilty with my attitude but I respond in kind. I appreciate that you are willing to at least call me out much like I called her out and point out my logical fallacy. You have done that though without a moral superiority that you know better and rather than telling me I am wrong and that is that, you have pointed out the issue in my logic.

                    • I think it’s rather petty. Everyone’s up in arms trying to validate their opinions. Meanwhile, point #3 remains unaddressed among 50+ comments. Really, I claimed world devastation with Child Free thinking. Now THAT’S worth talking about.

                    • Tiffany Gabriel

                      Nice attempt to segweu. I still want to see Jennifer explain how it is exactly she is happier.

                    • Just saying. I thought people would be more upset with me accusing them of bringing civilization to its knees. Instead, it’s been, “You can’t make me.”

                    • Tiffany Gabriel

                      We’re responding to Jennifer’s one-sided, biased statements, not your article.

                      And where’d you get the “you can’t make me” notion? All I see is women trying to defend their lifestyle choices against a society that says we aren’t happy unless we use our uterus’s.

                    • bob

                      Well when you get right down to it…you really can’t make anyone do anything. I mean we can present arguments and counterarguments but I think we are all pretty realistic that no one here is changing their mind. My main goal is to make people pause and think. I actually don’t think it is terrible that you brought up good points. Sure we could argue till we’re blue in the face but isn’t the point of bringing them up not so much to sway you or I to my way of thinking but to bring up something for you to think about? I am not saying either or our arguments are correct or our points of view. If we can come out of this with an understanding of each other and perhaps something to think about then I think that is the goal. I think the main issue as Tiffany has responded is Jennifer’s response of digging her heels in and her response of “I won’t even consider your point.” I respect the fact you are willing to bring up some issues and point that haven’t been considered. You have brought up some points and said some things that make sense. I hope to incorporate them in a later debate. I hope I have stimulated you to think about some of my points to incorporate them later. Annnnd in the end I am still a jerk though so I will still call people like Jennifer out and have no problem going on the attack as petty as it is.

                    • Victoria Stevens

                      No one is up in arms about statement #3 because it’s not valid and not worth a discussion.

                    • TattooedLittleMiss

                      Maybe because it’s a tired accusation and a ridiculous one, at that. As someone else stated, most people want at least one child. The increase in child-freedom has not dampened that, nor has it been so fast as to threaten the safety of the species. Frankly, a worldwide 30% drop in births wouldn’t be such a bad thing for this generation and the next. It would give a much damaged environment a chance to recover.

                    • Anton Cross

                      So, are you admitting to trying to piss people off just because, Mr. Jeub?

                    • LoriVK

                      I’ll respond. Every life form that has ever lived, in the history of this planet, has gone extinct. A couple of million people in every generation looks at what parenthood has to offer and says “meh, not for me” is not going to cause an end to western civilization.

                      The way the humans of the past three generations have treated the planet we live on is a more likely cause of the death to life as we know it than a bunch of privileged westerners not having babies.

                      It’s not a real argument, Chris, because there’s no basis in reality for it. There are still billions of people who either want to have kids or who will have them if they’re confronted with the reality of an unintended pregnancy.

                      That’s why no one responded.

                    • stellabystarlite

                      Yeah! What’s it to the author of this article or anyone else currently living if “the human race ceases to exist”? Well, neither will you or any of the rest of us. How does that amount to “all hell will break loose”? Ah no! A world without humans! Ever seen “life without people”? I think the other creatures of the planet can take over and they’ll manage just fine without iPads, recorded music, and other human innovations. After some thousand years, all traces of us will have basically crumbled. And I don’t expect to live that long so I’m cool with it.

                    • LittleKnives

                      Here is a simple response to the problem of a collapsing civilization… Once I’m dead, I’m not going to be able to care about what the state of the world is in. I’m not leaving behind anyone who I will have to worry about what will happen to them when I’m gone. I honestly don’t even care about other people while I’m alive. As long as I can care for myself and my family and friends, that’s all that matters to me.

                    • Mary Kidd

                      I attend my local YMCA, and over half the young mothers there are either pregnant/have at least 2-3 children. So no, I’m not worried that we’re looking at an extinction level event of the human race if fewer couples decide not to have children.

                    • Skippy

                      Your point # 3 is a slippery slope fallacy. The vast majority of the world’s citizens will still go on having children. Many if not most people want to have kids, and many others will have them unplanned. You are trying to create an unwarranted fear.

                    • bob

                      Well just remember you are also trying to validate your opinions with the article as well. Anyway I shall tackle your point 3 for you but I won’t claim I will sway you. I understand your point. If we all ditch the responsibility of being a parent where are we going to be? Are we sacrificing our best and brightest potential for the future because college educated people like my wife and I are not having kids? Honestly I don’t think so. I think there are other paths to keep the world culturally a better place to live for future generations. My cornerstone argument is education, education, education. I will stop right there because that is kinda a strawman argument it is answering your question with another counter question but to quickly wrap that up before I get back on task! I think better education for the kids already here would help counter act that issue. Now what I think could really help counter your issue is providing better support for parents that want to be parents and better support for people that don’t want to be parents. Why not provide good parents like you. Since you are clearly invested in raising good children that are productive members of society with more support? Those people that don’t really want to be parents why not keep them from becoming terrible parents because they have kids just to have kids. I rather have someone like you have 16 plus kids because you are actually invested than 16 parents have one kid each and only about 5 of the 16 kids get the kind of support they deserve. Since you are worried about these issues let me point out that the baby boomer generation is retiring and will then start dying. Sorry to say but we are already in an issue of aging population and Japan is already in the thick of it. There will be some tough questions and I think Technology is something that will pull us out of the fires. I know my response doesn’t answer all your questions from number 3 but I hope it is a decent response to your question.

                    • bob

                      And just a little add on. I am part of a child free group on facebook. Our numbers are just under 1,500 members and not all from the US even. I don’t think there is too much concern that we will over take the people having children. I think it is one of the larger groups as well so while perhaps the movement is growing it is at this point not threat to sending our society into a tailspin. I also think the government would probably step in and offer incentives to have kids or more kids if it ever got to the point we were putting ourselves in danger. With the immigration into the US I don’t know if we will ever get to that point. I know Aussie land is in that situation but they offer an incentive of one for you, one for your wife, and one for your country. Perhaps the US will get to that point but I don’t think we will have that concern for a while if ever.

                    • Anna

                      Australia has stopped paying women for each baby they pop out. It was little more than state sanctioned prostitution but instead of blokes only having an orgasm they got to play daddy later. Most of the money went to the middle classes who admitted to spending their baby bonus on a tv, car, computer. Aussies don’t save for their kids future like USA. With so many refugees around the globe all countries can have as large a population as they want

                    • Anna

                      The planet may be a better place without humans. As the population increases the planet’s resources are being put under pressure. We may be headed for an oil free planet within a couple of hundred of years. Pollution is overwhelming in some places (the Pacific Ocean gyre) & birds are dying from a diet of plastic waste. Humanity is the dominant species on earth but we are depleting it’s resources. Humans can fix this by becoming more responsible. The huge numbers of refugees could easily replace low populations in areas that need to increase their workforce. Japan is well below population replacement levels but don’t take in refugees or immigrants. There are solutions to the problems of population so if people don’t want kids leave them be.

                    • World devastation is going to be caused anyway; overpopulation is going to destroy this planet.

                    • Meri Da

                      Fraulein N

                      Chris Jeub

                      3 years ago

                      World devastation is going to be caused anyway; overpopulation is going to destroy this planet.

                      if trump doesnt screw it up first…..now there’s an abortion that should have happened…or even a condom!

                    • Overtaxed

                      Chris,

                      Many of the problems that we see in the US, in particular, today are because there are too many people and not enough work that those people are suited to do to go around. This trend is just going to continue. Today a computer can do the work of a “grunt”. Tomorrow it will do the work of a college graduate. 10 years later, it will be able to do the work of all but the very smartest and most creative of us. We simply don’t need as many “hands” to keep the world running as we used to. And, the hands that we do need are almost all picked from the high to very high IQ pool (of which there are very few people). What we need is more people 120+ IQ and less people 100 and below. What we are getting is the opposite as the high IQ “opt out” of breeding and the low IQ breed at the “normal” pace.

                    • Tiffany Gabriel

                      Good for you for pointing out the nonsense. She is avoiding the hard questions and finding an easy way out, that’s for sure.

                    • janey

                      You can’t debate with someone who says, “I’m right because I’m right.”

                    • TattooedLittleMiss

                      No wondering involved. Anymore than you, presumably, wonder what it’s like to have never had children and have devoted yourself to something completely different instead. The closest I come to wondering is a passing fancy now and then that ultimately ends with me shuddering and being grateful I made the decision I did.

                    • whatajoke

                      maybe more like Stockholm syndrome

                    • Fattysgonnafat

                      Yeah, generally when people have to go to such lengths to defend their ‘happiness’ they’re miserable underneath.

                • janey

                  And envy is frequently hidden in an irrational bias that makes anyone who doesn’t live like you wrong.

              • Ella Warnock

                Well, the upside is that the “selfish genes” will die out with those who preferred not to procreate, opening up the future for those who will. That can only be a good thing, right?

                • Elaine Walkden

                  There’s no such thing as a “selfish gene”. Christ on a cracker.

              • Annie Neubauer

                Selfish? Who are we being selfish too? Selfish implies someone else is suffering because of our actions. Who is suffering?

              • Barbara Smith

                What is ignorant about people thinking and making decisions? That sounds intelligent to me. By all means, parents should teach their children to think before making big decisions, such as whether or not to have children. I think freedom is a wonderful ideology. I want future generations to know they have choices.

              • Victoria Stevens

                There is no ideology here. We are not ‘teaching children’ anything except to think for themselves and make their own choices, whatever those may be. There are way to many people on this planet as it stands and people are still having children. We are not in danger of not having a next generation.

              • Nulligravida

                Argumentum reductio ad absurdum.

              • Dear god, the “selfish” argument again. Selfish to WHOM? Children who do not and never will exist? How is that even possible?

                • Overtaxed

                  Those who do not exist, by definition, have no standing. So, as you correctly point out, it’s impossible to be mean/selfish/nice or anything else to “them”. Great book by David B “Better to never have been” about this concept, if you’d like to read more about it.

              • Fattysgonnafat

                Isn’t it considerably more selfish to try and force your choices on other people? How is choosing not to contribute to the world’s population problem selfish exactly? Parents are the selfish ones.

              • Mary Kidd

                Oh, for crying out loud! There will ALWAYS be people who want children! We are under no threat of becoming extinct as a race!

              • Meri Da

                Jennifer Alexander

                Sylvia D. Lucas

                3 years ago

                I am not trying to convince anyone of anything except that this whole
                movement is a selfish one. …….

                jesus……dear CHILDFREE jesus? selfish?

                before you say he didnt exist…BS!!! even most jews wont deny his existence. now is god/son of god/messiah/blah blah blah? ok…thats up for debate/personal belief.

                but he did exist.

                before you say he married the magdalene women & had kids…not true! that “fact” has been proven to be false & was actually written by religious nutjobs to try to get people to breed by making them think it was a sin not to…its the same BS as saying you’ll go to hell if…this that & the other thing. just scares people back into pews.

            • janey

              If you have a child just to see if it can perhaps make you even happier than you already are, and then find out that the child does not make you happier, you can just take it back the the child factory, right?

              These people don’t seem to be thinking clearly. If kids are what you want, great. That doesn’t mean you know what’s best for everyone else.

              How great do you think it feels to be a child whose parents regret having him/her?

          • Annie Neubauer

            Then explain parents who abuse and murder their children.

          • Barbara Smith

            Do you want people to have children they don’t want? How would that make anybody happy?

          • whatajoke

            HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

          • How can you possibly say what will or won’t make ANOTHER PERSON happy? You know what makes you happy, and that is it. Don’t be so presumptuous.

          • Fattysgonnafat

            That’s absolute rubbish. Mothers are not some special beings, and breeding doesn’t make you better than other people. It’s not a fact, it’s an opinion.

          • Overtaxed

            And Jennifer, you will never experience the same level of happiness as a monk who meditates his entire life and finally feels that he can speak to God. Or a cocaine addict who slips a needle into his vein and lights up ever dopamine receptor at the same time. If we’re just shooting for the “best feeling ever”, there are things that are far more transcendent than having children; feelings so good that you actually drop dead from them.

            Most people are shooting for a “good life” and, that life is statistically (at least in western society) more easily achievable without children. The highs aren’t as high, but the lows aren’t nearly as low; and, on average most people have a higher level of overall happiness before their children come along.

          • LittleKnives

            And I will never experience the possibility of my husband leaving me and our child, or having to stand in line to apply for wick, or having to deal with teenage pregnancy, or a bratty kid, or what if my kid comes out with some sort of physical or mental disability or disease? Saying that I will never be as happy as you is ridiculous. Why, because of love? Are you implying my life is devoid of love? That’s like saying you will never have a bond like I do, because I have an identical twin sister… Which to me, makes more sense. Pretty much anyone can choose to have kids. Being a twin is more special than having a baby.

          • Meri Da

            Jennifer Alexander

            Skippy

            3 years ago

            I didn’t say you were devoid of happiness Skippy. But understand
            this, you will never have the same level of happiness that comes with
            being a mother. You may dislike the statement, however it’s a fact.

            its your alternative fact perhaps….but not the main fact. a CF folk’s alternative fact is that they are happier without kids…& its a scientifically proven fact to….so there’s that.

            FFS why are breeder brains so goddamn retarded anyway?

      • Hilary Brewster

        I’ve never had my eyes stabbed with shards of glass; I know it would hurt.

      • Dach

        I’ve never had heroin either. I’ve talked to a few people who have tried it, and they say the feeling is entirely euphoric and that there is nothing in the world better than being high on heroin.

        But it comes at a high cost. Those feelings of euphoria are few and far between, and all the other times when not high are spent in abject frustration and stress, waiting for the next opportunity to be euphoric. It’s also hideously expensive, and so people have to make a determination as to whether they can afford it.

        So, by thoroughly evaluating the pros and cons of heroin, and asking others about their experiences, I can make an informed decision about having heroin. Or children.

        And I think the danger of articles like this one is that there are some people who absolutely should not have children, either due to genetic conditions, patterns of abuse, economic troubles, or other reasons. This article seems to suggest that everyone should blindly start popping out kids whether they would be good parents or not. It doesn’t say if; it says when.

      • Nika A.

        You will never be truly happy until you strip naked, paint yourself purple and walk through a department store. And if you have never done that, well you just don’t KNOW that it isn’t true.

        • quantumff

          That sounds much more fun than having kids. 😀

          And once it’s over it’s over.

        • TattooedLittleMiss

          I know what I’m doing next time my friends and I all have a day off together.

      • In exactly the same way I know that losing a leg would not make me happy. Even though I have never lost one.

      • TattooedLittleMiss

        In much the same way I’ve never been a stock broker, but i know I wouldn’t be happy. I’ve been solely responsible for other people’s kids for hours and days at a time as a nanny. I know I don’t have the temperament for child rearing. Also wrong about this is that not all, or even most, childfree people dislike children. I, personally, do. Even while caring about the kids I’ve cared for professionally, I never really like them. To each their own. I don’t particularly care if other people decide to have kids, as long as their happy, but I certainly don’t want anyone dictating what ought to make ME happy, or calling me crazy for having different preferences and joys.

      • Anton Cross

        Are you homosexual? If not, have you ever had a homosexual relationship? Would you say you wouldn’t like to have a homosexual relationship? How could you, if you’ve never had one?

        Stupid reasoning leads nowhere.

      • janey

        And if it doesn’t, you just send them back, right?

      • Nulligravida

        “You’ve never had children, so how do you know it wouldn’t make you happy?”

        In the same way that I have never left my hand on a hot stove (range) but I know that not doing it makes me happy.

      • Fattysgonnafat

        I’ve never had herpes but I’m pretty sure that wouldn’t make me happy! You don’t always need to try something to see if you like it. Also breeding isn’t something you can just try. You’re kinda stuck with the brat once you’ve given birth to it. It’s a bit hard to go back if you have a child and discover, as many parents do, that they have made a horrible, life ruining mistake.

      • brebay

        She’s probably never been locked in a closet without food for a week either, but probably know herself well enough to know that wouldn’t make her happy.

      • LittleKnives

        I’ve never had gay sex and I know I wouldn’t like it! Having kids isn’t like trying guacamole for the first time, or trying out a new hair cut… Once you have that kid, you’re stuck for life.

      • Elaine Walkden

        Having children on the idea you might be happier is a risky gamble. What if you had kids, hated your life and hated your kids? You can’t return them like you can a purchase from a store.

      • Meri Da

        Jennifer Alexander

        Skippy

        3 years ago

        You’ve never had children, so how do you know it wouldn’t make you happy?

        you’ve never eaten dog poo…how do you know it doesnt taste good?

        you’ve never swum with a shark…how do you know it isnt safe to do so?

        you’ve never joined the ISIS terror group….how do you know they’re a terrorist group? they might actually like women….in fact…i KNOW they like women. very much so.

  • Lindsey Schroeder

    Hmm,
    I’ll never understand why it has to be “right” or “wrong” . I’m
    childfree but most certainly do not consider it an “ideology” I WANT
    there to be all types of people and choices in the world. I would never
    want everyone to choose to be childfree as I would never expect
    everyone to want children. The world will survive and go on. Live your
    life the way you want. The only true selfish thing is to ask others to
    live their lives the way YOU want. Some people will be happy with
    their life choices and never regret a thing, and some sadly will regret
    their decisions. Hopefully you choose what’s best for you so you can
    contribute to this life in a way that fills you with purpose

  • Jason Kadlec

    How many logical fallacies does one need? This whole Article falls apart with a bit of critical thinking

    • Name one.

      I love your name, by the way. You should have a kid and name him, “Slick Black.”

      • Tiffany Gabriel

        “but my response is not attacking childless parents.”

        Can you explain what a childless parent is?

      • Hilary Brewster

        The biggest logical fallacy of this WHOLE debate is that preferences can be deemed right or wrong. Some CHOICES, naturally, have ethical consequences, but you wouldn’t be telling me I were selfish, doomed to a life of despair, etc. if I told you I don’t like jazz, anchovies, or the Chicago Cubs. Now, you may, based on your own experiences, try to suggest ways in which jazz, anchovies, and the Cubs might enhance my life, yes, in the same way I would perhaps try to argue that classical, cheesecake, and the Phillies might enhance yours. But the entire rhetoric of this discussion is people asserting that different PREFERENCES can or cannot make people happy. And that is logically implausible to suggest.

        • I don’t think I was THAT strong in my article, but fair enough. I don’t want to make anyone choose something they don’t like. If you insist that you don’t like green eggs and ham, I’ll leave you be, Sam I Am.

          However, “the entire rhetoric of this discussion” is on this one point. No one is touching points 2 or 3. If there is a fallacy in my thinking, I’d think you would want to take me out on those. Especially #3: I packed a pretty big snow ball:

          The Child Free ideology encourages a cultural shift that would result in world devastation.

          • Tiffany Gabriel

            Chris, you’ve had enough kids to cover both Hilary and I for a lifetime.

            • Kaitlyn Bergin

              Love this comment!

          • Hilary Brewster

            Right. I said that it will never, ever happen. The environmental impact of continuing to overpopulate the earth will also lead to devastation. At any time in history, across most cultures (ones who have been studied), the lowest the natalist rate drops to is 90%. Yes. If people stopped having children from this point forward, the world would end. Of course. But that (especially given the ridiculous lack of contraception and/or access to abortion in most cultures) will never, ever happen. And, to be clear, I meant “the whole debate” to mean the “parents” v. “childfree” debate that happens culturally, not necessarily the one happening on this blog. The Childfree “ideology” (again–I don’t buy it as one, and I am very, very active in the CF world and don’t think that’s really what people think of CF) is not about trying to convince the entire world not to have kids. It’s about recognizing that there IS a life worth meaning and living in not having kids and that, linguistically, it is a “free” and not a “less” because WE do not believe our lives are inherently less valuable or wonderful. IT is not a deficit model. I am not LACKING something–I am free from something I see as undesirable. Our cultural (and again, we are all being a bit Western centric, let’s admit it) is VERY pro natalism/pro parenting/especially pro mothering.

          • How would the world be devastated by the loss of humanity?

            • That’s where I believe the rich discussion is, Sylvia, not “leave me be.” Take economics, for instance. A growing economy benefits everyone, a regressing one is a downer, and a depressing one is devastating. Take people out of an economy, and you have consequences the childfree community doesn’t seem to consider.

              • Skippy

                Basically, you want everyone to keep breeding good little workers so you can keep up your standard of living.

                • Elaine Walkden

                  Pretty much. We all need to produce the next set of restaurant servers, Wal Mart cashiers, medical facility grunts, makers of eleven billion inch televisions and soldiers so the older people can continue their comfortable way of living.

              • TattooedLittleMiss

                Too bad we already have more people than jobs and the few jobs that are available do not pay a living wage. The former fact is not likely to change anytime soon, especially as we continue to move away from a production-based economy. Furthermore, focusing on economy ignores the world population which continues to expand with disastrous effects on the world as a whole. I’d rather reform immigration standards than continue to contribute to irresponsible reproduction in order to buoy an economy that more hungry mouths will not help recover.

              • Overtaxed

                Chris,

                At some point, the number of consumers MUST shrink. We cannot keep adding to population indefinately. The question is, do we want it to shrink before or after we’ve exhausted all the natural resources of this planet. I, and many other childfree would prefer “before”. There are benefits to a shrinking population as well that people just don’t seem to be able to grasp, but, they are real/tangible and we just don’t don’t know if it would be better or worse.

          • badmoodpixie

            There are 7 BILLION people in the world. Perhaps the increase of people choosing to remain childless is a natural shift due to overpopulation. You have over a dozen children, your wife has been pregnant for a DOZEN YEARS; a lot of women, believe it or not, do not find that idea appealing in the least.

      • Lance Blackstone

        I’ve named several fallacies. I had to stop. Was wearing out the keyboardkeyboard.

        http://werenothavingababy.com/childfree/childfree-chris-jeub-master-debater-or-master-of-logical-fallacy/

  • bob

    While Amy Glass is full of generalizations this is as well. You are assuming that somehow with children life will be better because you have them. I used to work in Child Support and believe you me the situations those kids are in is not for the better. Sometimes it isn’t the correct thing to do. For my wife and I it certainly isn’t We are both college educated and graduated into the recession. I for one am thankful. If we hadn’t I think we would have just had kids to have them. Thanks to our financial struggles we realized we could never have kids without being in debt with our student loans. I got fixed at 23 and she got fixed at 26…rhymes, awesome right? Anyway there are enough people having kids and we don’t want to end up on the government’s dime. We are responsible adults that pay our bills and student loans. We are putting money into our 401ks, roth iras, and iras along with paying down our substantial tuition bills. We may not have kids but a lot of our friends are so we get our fix with that. I don’t see the problem with not being a parent and instead being an awesome Uncle. If I had a kid I would do that child a disservice for every generation wants better for their children. I can’t give that to my child so what’s the point. I’d also like to point our from an environmental standard why are you populating an already overburdened earth with so many children? Does anyone need 16 children? I am sure you love them all and I am clearly not saying get rid of them at this point but our world population is growing by leaps and bounds. At some point even with science to help us keep up with resource demand we will be overpopulated. So is it really selfish and terrible that we are thinking about the environment. I would rather some people not replacing themselves to make up for those like you that are over replacing yourself. If not we will get to the point that starvation and wars will set in and the population will go down anyway. My point mainly being is that I am child free. My wife and I are happy and we are fulfilled. We are active with our adopted nieces and nephews. We are responsible tax payers and refuse to get into debt for a child. Are we all really so bad? Sure there are some more caustic members of the Child Free movement but I think no matter what you wish the movement will only grow in strength as people realize you don’t need a child to have it all. All that money we are saving will take care of us later and honestly I rather regret not having a child than have a child I resent.

  • Hilary Brewster

    I am saying never. I had a tubal ligation at 32 after weighing all of the possible pros and cons about having children. The point that we will 100% never know whether having kids would make us happy it, linguistically, correct. However, to suggest that the comparison is similar to trying foods we’ve never eaten is a) insulting to parenthood, and b) also logically incorrect. There are ways in which human beings have the intellectual capacity to make very, very, very well educated guesses about experiences (tasting food, etc.) And, unlike something as visceral as eating a new food, there are myriad ways in which people take in, by proxy, the lifestyle that comes with parenting, even if it is not directly experienced. I know myself, know what makes me happy, and, unlike trying liver, I cannot “try” having a kid and then spit it out if I don’t like it. Of course, like EVERYTHING ELSE, it is different when they’re your own. Of course. And yes, what it feels like to LOVE your own child is something I will not experience. But you (and all parents) can also not logically take up the notion that it is the only way to happiness–because you have made a choice that prevents you from knowing what your life would have been like without children (1, 2, or 16). Furthermore, whether being childfree is an ideology or not–I would disagree with it, but whatever–the HIGHEST the rate of childlessness has ever reached is 10% (during the Depression). The world BENEFITS from people who choose not to have children–you’re right, the world would not benefit from NO ONE having children, but that literally will never happen. Ever. Especially with people such as yourselves for whom, for whatever reason, more than meet a “replacement” rate by having numerous children. By “freeing up” some adults who are not invested in their own offpsring, those who DO have children have assistance, in various forms. Furthermore, to suggest (implicitly), that a woman’s purpose and goal in life should be/is to bear children is horribly insulting to all of the women who a) do both, or b) do not have kids, and it stems from a limited view of genetics and biology with a dash of misogyny and sexism thrown in for good measure. A man’s purpose, then, is to “seed” as many different’ women as he can, and I highly doubt this “ideology” would be well supported as an overall cultural movement. Lastly, if we–other women, or society at large–cannot critique women’s choices (all of them, including choices to be a working mother, stay at home mother, or non-mother) then what we’re saying, by extension, is that women’s choices don’t matter.

    • Leigh

      I want to be you when I grow up.

      I’ve been hunting down doctors to try and get sterilized myself and it’s tough going. I hope I can be sterilized by 32.

    • TattooedLittleMiss

      Thank you for this, yes.

      I’ve been trying to get sterilized for four years. I’ve finally given up and opted for a long-term, if impermanent, method of birth control consider as effective as a tubal ligation and have resigned myself to being happy with that and getting it replaced every three years.

  • Hilary Brewster

    Also, I CAN know that I might not like something without having tried it. I have never been hit in the skull with a baseball bat, contracted necrotizing faciitis, stepped harshly on a bed of nails, or had my mother pass away. Mind you, I am not comparing having kids to those things. I am merely breaking down the rhetorical move inherent in “you can’t know if you don’t like something until you’ve tried it.”

  • LesAnn620

    I’m terrified I’d have children and regret them. Or hurt them. Or resent them. Or neglect them. Or pass on mental instability. What about that part of it? If I say I hate a food I’ve never tried, even if I try it and do dislike it, I can choose to never eat it again. If I don’t normally like children, but decide to have one anyway because “you never know, you might like it” — I cannot take that back. I cannot change it. I cannot decide that I’ve tried it, it’s not for me and I’m never dealing with it again. I can do immense harm to an innocent person. If someone doesn’t want children and does not think they are meant to parent, why should they? What about the harm it could cause?

    Google the phrase “I hate being a mom.” Some women really do hate being mothers. They think they’re supposed to have children, so they do. Then they are miserable with their lives and even though they do all they can for their children they hate it. When they try to find support from other moms on the internet all they receive is terrible comments like, “Get over yourself. Why did you have children? You should’ve remained childless. You’re unfit to be a mother. You’re a selfish mother — you should give them up for adoption so they don’t have a mother that hates them.”

    Seriously. I should have kids because YOU know it’ll make me the happiest thing ever (even though I don’t want any) and then if I have them and resent/regret them I should be ashamed of myself and I’m a horrible selfish person who had children and shouldn’t have? I could’ve told you that in the first place.

    • Megan Davila

      This, all freaking day. I came here to say this. You cannot just “try-out” parenthood. There are no take-backs. Parenthood is not that new Thai restaurant in town. You can’t just stop in, decide the food doesn’t bring you happiness, and then just never go there again. You can’t just return your baby. Because then you know what happens? You’re worse than a childfree person. You’re seen as a monster (which is how I feel people view me anyway.)
      I don’t know if you personally suffer from mental illness, or were just trying to make a point. But let me tell you from the stand point of a person who does have it, you hit the nail on the head. I think it would be incredibly selfish of me to bring a child into this world just because “that’s what people do”. And then what if I can’t handle it? Do I take my life because there is no other way out? Do I drown my children? Do I get into a car and drive away, never to return? None of these are positive outcomes. I cannot see how people still push others so much for parenthood, when clearly it’s not healthy for ANYONE in their particular situation.
      You also need to look at what situation people are in. I feel like I have been a parent already, to my aging relatives. I also still support my parents financially. Maybe if I actually had that “selfish” time that most people get in their 20’s, I would feel differently. But I never got it. I still don’t have it. Others depend on my support. I am so tired of parenting my parents, that it’s all I can do not to run away. I don’t want to be mature anymore. I want to do what I want, when I want, without having to worry myself sick over how others will get along without me.
      Also, to Mr. Jeub. I do applaud you for standing up for your opinion. I have seen some of your tweets, and am glad that you are rational enough to know that Ms. Glass does not speak for all of us childfree people. I am glad there is so much diversity in this world. I am glad that people are filled with immense joy when they have children. My only wish is that I got the same respect as parents. I have never, ever, in my life, talked down to, berated, screamed-at, or thought a person was less of a person because they were a parent. I’m hard pressed though, to receive that same kind of treatment, especially from parents themselves. Now, why would I want to raise a child in this world, when people having other people, can’t even act decent?

      • LesAnn620

        Thanks @megandavila:disqus. And yes, in my life I’ve suffered from depression and anxiety disorders, as has my mother. My mother who has told me in all honesty that she did not like being a mother. That if she could do it all again, she thinks she would not have children. I am a lot like her. And we love each other, really and truly. But her life was hard. Growing up living with her and in the circumstances we were in was hard. We had no money and my (now ex)stepdad was abusive and an alcoholic and a drug addict. I was suicidal at twelve. I spent many years being angry at her for not sending us away to live with our father. Some of us have issues that are deep and children would not mix well with them.

        And after all this, after all these years, my mother is finally working her way out of debt, meaning she has no retirement and no savings. Who’s going to help care for her when she’s older if I have no extra resources because they’re all spent on children? (Just as an FYI: I’m 28 and I have 18 nieces and nephews and one grandnephew total between my husband and I. I adore them.)

        • Larry_Sanger

          So, if your argument is correct, it would have applied to your mother; and then you’d have to conclude that she shouldn’t have had you. Have I got that straight?

          It’s a grim view of the world, but admirably honest.

  • Tamika

    For any of your arguments to work, the ‘child free’ have to *want* these children in the first place. And do you really want to sic little human beings onto parents that don’t want them? There’s enough of that going on in the world with people who weren’t responsible about their life choices and regret having children. They take it out on the children, too. What kind of upbringing is that? Personally, I simply do not have a desire to birth and/or raise children. That’s all the reason I need to not have children. Also, as a product of a childhood raised by people who didn’t want me there, I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.

    • Tiffany Gabriel

      I know exactly what you mean.

      Look at the millions of children abused, molested, and murdered by their parents and tell me still everyone should have kids.

  • Tamika

    Actually reading this article was difficult. It’s amazing the lengths that people will go to just to persuade women to push babies out of their vaginas. Luckily, we have the last word on that.

  • Robert Briquet

    Trying to grasp the logic. So according to your view, parents with children who do not enjoy parenthood at all and regret their choice, they just don’t know better? I know several people who openly have made the statement. What about those who have had children, let’s say in the role of a step-parent and were unhappy and unfulfilled, then they subsequently divorced and were happy not to be in a step-parent role, are you just going to say it doesn’t count because it wasn’t their biological child? Familiar with this scenario too. In both of these situations, the individual did know the role of parenting and were less happy than they were before it. This isn’t an effort to prove a point, I’m just trying to see your side and see how these scenarios fit into your paradigm.

  • Robert Briquet

    I’m truly trying to see the logic here, not just debate. Based on the views in the comments, how do you respond to the following two scenarios, of which I have friends in the same situations. 1) Parents are happy pre-child, they subsequently have children and ultimately, regret their decision and wish they had not. The continue to raise their kids the best that they can, but do wish they had taken the childfree route. Do you say they are just bad people or don’t know better? 2) Someone becomes a step-parent, for all purposes, they serve as the other parent in the child’s life. Subsequently, they are divorced and estranged from the child as the other parent keeps them away and they have no legal rights. They did not enjoy the parenting role at all, although they did it for years, they are happier being away from that role. Do you say that it’s different because it wasn’t their biological child? In this situation, they looked at the child as their own. I know people in both situations and they have been honest about how they felt even if it is unpopular. I have a hard time discounting their feelings given their experiences with raising kids.

  • Leigh

    I’m not going to have children. I could list the reasons why but it ultimately boils down to “I don’t want them.” Children would not make me happy. Yet the choice I make to not have them, which doesn’t harm you in the least, somehow bothers you. You want me to have children and be unhappy. I don’t understand that.

  • Tiffany Gabriel

    This article you’ve written is based on your opinion, no facts or statistics cited. To contest every little detail would be a waste of time for us, because the individual making the claim (You, Chris) holds the burden of proof.

    Instead of trying to hear both sides of the stories, you just went ahead and made all your assumptions. Did you talk to anyone who is childfree, did you read any childfree literature? Do you want to know how I know you didn’t do these things? Because you continually spelled it “Child Free”.

  • Amy Whistler

    If everyone has children, the world will become over-populated and we all suffer. If no-one has children, the world becomes under-populated and we all suffer.

    Why not just accept that not everyone needs to live the same life?

    (And I would direct the same argument towards anyone who looks down on parents)

    • Jelly Beans

      This is awesome, I wish I could upvote this 10 times over!

    • TattooedLittleMiss

      Agreed. I don’t think either writer is correct. Glass shouldn’t’ve attacked parents. Who cares whether people choose to have kids, choose to work, choose to stay home? As long as they’re happy and their families are healthy and happy, who CARES?! Same goes for people who don’t want children. This isn’t countering Ms Glass’ attacks, it’s sinking to her level of petty arrogance.

  • Erin Ava Gombita

    Not all chilfree people think everyone should be child free. I just dont want kids. Never did. And the way I know I won’t like eating dog food without ever eating it is the same way I know I won’t like having kids. I know myself and i know that’s not the life for me.

  • rosie mags

    I love children and look forward to having some of my own if and when the time is right. I’m a teacher, so I spend more time with kids everyday than most parents. But, if we want to talk about selfishness, let’s talk about all the people out there who procreate for selfish reasons, at the expense of their children. I see so many parents at my school who had kids, not because they knew they could be great parents, but because they wanted to fix a failing marriage, or they were lonely, or everyone else was having kids, or they were being pressured by family. These are not the people we want having kids. We owe it to our potential children not to give birth to them simply because grandpa was crying to some strangers at an Applebee’s. Parenting is a HUGE, IMPORTANT responsibilty and it’s not for everyone. It’s for people who are already happy, fulfilled, in a good place and ready to share that with a child.
    While I’m sure that the author and his wife are the kind of parents that did make the choice to have kids for the right reasons, I think his line of thinking is what pressures people who shouldn’t parent into doing it for all the wrong reasons.

    • Jelly Beans

      Thank you for providing a wonderful and intelligent bit of insight 🙂 I would hate to have a child because of someone else or because of my own emotional/social failings (like not being happy or because people are pressuring me), so those are two big reasons why I’m childfree!

      Children are a HUGE responsibility, at least 18 years worth of emotional, psychological, and fiscal investment, and I know I wouldn’t be able to handle it; neither would my hubby! We’ll leave kids up to those who are ready and willing to have them.

      • Mary Kidd

        It’s a lifetime of emotional investment; but I was/am willing to do it. I’m glad you realize your feelings; and reasons, for remaining childfree, just as my own daughter has. I want people who WANT to have kids to have kids. I don’t want to see children who are abandoned/abused/neglected because the parents didn’t want them to began with.

  • Michihiro Daisuke

    I’ll respond to your points in order for logic’s sake.

    1. You ask, “How is it at all logically possible to insist that you would not enjoy that which you have never had?”

    In the same way that I choose not to play Russian roulette, drive drunk, or physically accost someone I don’t know, I choose not to have children. I may not know on a personal level exactly how I would feel while committing such actions (I may very well enjoy those things if I tried them), but the effects and consequences of taking such actions are what prevent me from doing so.

    If I buy an item at the store I don’t like, I can generally take it back. Even an item I can’t take back can be thrown away or sold should I regret the acquisition. With children, however, there is no such possibility. Sure you can give the child up for adoption, but simply having a child just to experience what it’s like is lunacy in light of the seriousness of the undertaking. So to answer your question, while I may not know what it feels like to have children, I know from others’ experiences that I more than likely would not like the outcome of doing so.

    2. Your second point hinges on two sub-points: that the lives of child free individuals will end depressingly and that it harms those who wish to see their children bear further progeny.

    You assert that having no children means you’ll “die with depressing consequence”. To illustrate your point, you tell the story of a couple you know that deeply desires grandchildren and whose sole child (a daughter) desires to remain child free. The issue here is that you are stating that someone should have children for the sake of someone else (in this case the prospective grandparents). Would you paint your house so that the neighbor could enjoy the view? Or would you buy a car for the purpose of other people enjoying the color? Of course not, and yet with something far more serious than either of those things, the creation of new life that could potentially have life saving or disastrous effects on the world, you go against basic sense.

    Even worse, you go on to assert that those who have remained child free have contacted you telling you of their regret. At the same time, I can tell you of many people that I have talked with that deeply regret having children. This is where reviewing a decision before making it comes into play (see point 1). For you to claim a one size fits all approach, and belittle those who do not make the same decision as you as ending up in, “depressing consequence” is absurd. Happiness can only be measured by an individual in regards to their life choices; for you to say otherwise is just as invasive as someone who is child free telling you that you can’t possibly be happy with children.

    3. Your third and final point is by far the most contentious (as I’m sure you intended), but it is also the one most lacking in logic.

    You assert, “Aging populations, overburdened social structures, failing economies,
    depressed growth — it is inescapable when the population shrinks.” The problem with your point is multifaceted. First is that society has already existed at a smaller population level than currently and is somehow unable to move back to that. Second, that in its smaller state, society is somehow incapable of changing to meet the demands of its population, which is illogical as demonstrated by the successful changes made in the face of massive demographic shifts of even the past fifty years. But third, and most importantly, that somehow the economy will fail because of less people existing. Again, less people existed at nearly every point over the past two hundred years, and yet society didn’t collapse. America still existed. The world kept turning.

    Honestly, up to that point your assertion was nothing but unfounded fear mongering. It has no basis in reality, and no statistical evidence to back it up. In fact, history itself proves your point untrue.

    But you didn’t stop there. You went on to compare the child free to polluters and welfare cheats. Which is ironic considering that 64% of TANF recipients are actually single parents.

    Source: http://www.scribd.com/doc/35260944/Welfare-Recipients-by-Year-and-Category

    To summarize, you belittled, insulted, and fear mongered against child free as a community in response to a hit piece done by a blogger in order to stir up controversy and gain readership. In doing so, you’ve shown that you’re just as bad (if not worse) than the author of the article you responded to. Just as you wouldn’t like it if all Christians were lumped into the same category as the Spanish Inquisition, or all childbearing couples lumped in with Octomom, so too do child free individuals not enjoy being lumped in with a single angry individual.

  • Some girl

    Stop having children and ruining our planet with your breeding, moron.

  • Michelle

    I can respect someones wish to have children, but you need to respect my choice to live childfree. I think the part of your article that infuriated me the most was the comment about the older couple complaining that their daughter did not want to have children and your insistence on making the reader feel bad for them. My mother has told me MANY times how sad and disappointed she is that I am not having children, but making a choice to have children should not be one made rashly, nor should it be made just to make someone else happy. The fact that my mother can not respect my decision to do what I want to do with my life just shows how selfish she is. Children are a TON of work, they are a financial and resource burden, and THEY ARE NOT FOR EVERYONE. I am making the educated decision to not have children for a variety of reasons and there is nothing wrong with that,

    • TattooedLittleMiss

      My father does the same and I have the same response. Unless he intends to take them from me at birth and be the sole fiscal, physical, and emotional support center for them, why should I give birth simply to provide him grandchildren? I don’t want them, can’t afford them, and am, frankly, not physically healthy enough to want to try. If he’s so desperate to play with and spoil children, I’m sure there are a number of places he can volunteer to do just that.

    • Sharon Sandells

      Neither myself nor my two brothers (despite the youngest one living
      with his partner over 12 years) want children. My parents are fine with
      never having human grandchildren. My youngest brother and his partner
      have dogs and do agility/obedience trials with them. My parents go to
      them and have pics taken there. When my parents’ friends pull out pics
      of their grandchildren at sports events, my parents pull out pics of
      them at their granddogs sports days. For Christmas this year they want a
      multi photo frame so they can put up pics of the granddogs and (my)
      grandkitties on the wall.

      My parents have never pushed any of us
      to have kids (all 3 of us) as none of us want them, we prefer animals.
      My parents, who have been happily married over 50 years, are fine with
      whatever makes us happy.

  • sonamata

    It’s too bad you chose to respond to an antagonistic, sensationalistic article with your own set of antagonistic generalizations. You confuse the rantings of an extremist with the “ideology” of numerous very different people.

    I know many childfree people – myself included – that are not the stereotypical “child haters” you’re trying to paint. We love our nieces and nephews, we love our friends’ children. We’re part of the support network that you call when you get overloaded. We’re the siblings that take care of aging parents so you can tend to your responsibilities with the kids.

    “How is it at all logically possible to insist that you would not enjoy that which you have never had?” “Stop telling those of us on the other side what we’re experiencing.” You understand this goes both ways, correct? You would do well to take your own advice – especially when it comes to predicting what old age holds for us. And no, you don’t know what it’s like to be childless/childfree/whatever because you did it for a few years before the kids arrived. It’s an entirely different experience to age and mature in a marriage without children and without them in the plan.

    Because I don’t have children, I can work for less money for a nonprofit that fights poverty. It’s pretty hard to be “anti-people” when your job revolves around making sure that families have a place to live, food to eat, lights and heat, and an education. I am one of many childfree people that care deeply about making the world a better place. Not all of us are doing it so we can roll around in our money like Scrooge McDuck. Just because you saw a couple on a beach on a magazine cover that looked like they were selfish, doesn’t mean that is every childfree person’s experience.

    All those “demographic harms” you state are not definitive, and in many cases can be offset. And interesting that you chose an analogy that involved littering, when exponential population growth isn’t exactly associated with beneficial environmental outcomes.

    Besides, the scenario where nobody has children is a false dichotomy. With the exception of radicals like zero population growthers, childfree people are not advocating for no one to have children ever. They advocate for people to have the freedom to make an unconventional choice. You made an unconventional choice to have 16 children. There are plenty of people telling both of us that we made the wrong decision. It would be nice if people could just live their life as they feel they have been called to lead it without judgement.

  • Tabitha

    No one is happier than parents? Tell that to all the kids who are raped, abused, sold as sex slaves and much worse, by their so called parents. Time and time again, parents seek to undermine the childfree with the same old arguments: we’re selfish, we’re immature blah blah blah.. Do you honestly believe that most childfree people haven’t heard this rubbish before, that your “special”?? You choose kids, we don’t. How is that such a hard concept for some parents to get their heads around? Selfishness can be argued on both sides of the fence. Yes, your kids made your life different and better than it was.. No, I don’t know if or how kids would make it “better” but I do know that I am happy, with my amazingly equally childfree partner and I am not willing to put all my eggs in the same basket 90% of people do and risk what is great now for what may be great in the future. There is no danger of a shortage of people, you and every other judgemental parent should become familiar with the saying “live and let live”.

  • Erin Ava Gombita

    Here is my take on all of this. As a child, I never had thoughts about being “mommy”. I never once in my life ever thought about being a parent. And up until recently, I didn’t even know that was taboo. I am happy for my friends and family members that want to be parents. I want them to be happy. And i want to be happy too and my happiness is not based solely on having a child. At the moment I am working to get approval for a non profit animal shelter in my area to pull shelter animals from euthanasia lists. Seeing my pets that were so close to being put to sleep flls me with an undescribable happiness. Im assuming the same type of happiness that parents feel when they look at their children. My mom encouraged me to live my dreams and not give in to societal pressures placed on me. Im an only child and the only chance my parents had for grandchildren yet neither one of them are upset that i chose not to have children. They are happy that I found something that means so much to me and makes me so happy, despite the emotional toll it can take on me when i ecounter abused animals or cant save one from being put to sleep.We are all different people with different goals, different favorite colours and different ideas on happiness and that is totally ok. I do have to disagree about the ending existence argument. Im a vegetarian and there is a vegan and vegetarian “movement”. But just because some people choosenot to eat meat doesnt mean that the entire world will. Some of us will decide to not have children while others will happily build families. A lot of the childfree articles and such that have been coming out are trying to stop the misconceptions that people have about the childfree and letting others know that its ok to make a personal decision for your own life. Some articles have been written poorly and come off judgemental. But the vast majority of us childfree folk just want to live our lives and not be berated for choosing a somewhat unconventional life path. I believe this whole whos right and whos wrong argument is getting everyone nowehre, fast. If you have kids, love your kids, enjoy every moment with them. Do what makes you happy. But please understand that some people are happy as they are, without children. Its like getting mad at someone that dislikes ice cream just because you love ice cream. .Sure, I’ll never know that feeling parents get when they hold their new baby for the first time and im ok with that. The feeling i get when i hold that poor, terrified little cat that was about to be put to sleep makes my life meaningful and thats all I want. We should all respect each other’s decision to either have or not have kids. We’ll all be better off when we do.

    • Tabitha

      I also never felt the urge to be a mum, I always believed that what I felt was how everyone felt, that I was just like everyone else..All I ever felt was revulsion whenever my parents would tell me that I will inevitably be a mother someday. I argued and argued in particular with my mum about it. She would blow me off with the usual “you’ll change your mind” everytime, which would frustrate me to no end! Roll on 17 years later and she now knows I am serious, especially when I told her that I am going to get a tubal this year. Ultimately, I’m doing not only myself and my partner a favour by opting out of parenthood but also for my non existent kids. I am certain I would not make a good mother, for a lot of reasons I do not have to explain to anybody. My life, my body, my choice. Simple as that 🙂 Happiness is different for everyone

    • Mary Kidd

      Oh, Erin, bless you! I have two children; a daughter who is childless-by-choice, and a son who’s only 19, and has no idea if he even wants kids (though he does think they’re cute). I am not the least bit upset that my daughter doesn’t want kids. It’s like I tell my friends, “I didn’t bring my kids into this world to give me grandkids.” And if my son decides not to have kids,it won’t bother me either. Keep up the animal rescue. I have a cat from a shelter, and she’s my little angel.

    • Sharon Sandells

      Neither myself nor my two brothers (despite the youngest one living with his partner over 12 years) want children. My parents are fine with never having human grandchildren. My youngest brother and his partner have dogs and do agility/obedience trials with them. My parents go to them and have pics taken there. When my parents’ friends pull out pics of their grandchildren at sports events, my parents pull out pics of them at their granddogs sports days. For Christmas this year they want a multi photo frame so they can put up pics of the granddogs and (my) grandkitties on the wall.

      My parents have never pushed any of us to have kids (all 3 of us) as none of us want them, we prefer animals. My parents, who have been happily married over 50 years, are fine with whatever makes us happy.

  • Anna

    When kids are tortured & abused by biological parents I fume (Khalil Wimes). I didn’t have kids because I never felt maternal. They’re expensive & time consuming & I’ve got enough to do looking after my selfish self. I decided at age 15 never to have kids & now at 49 I’m glad. I found out in my late 20s I’m bi-polar so it was a really responsible decision. It’d be even more selfish to have a kid coz others say I should
    when my suicidal depressions are frequent. The global population is increasing all the time and immigration is a solution for areas that aren’t replacing their own populations. No one has the right to tell me I’m wrong for staying childless. Have all the kids you want as long as you love & care for them & give them the best life you can afford but don’t expect all adults to think like that.

  • Nulligravida

    For someone who claims to understand “logic” the autthor presents analogy as data, an argumentum reductio ad absurdum, a false analogy, argumentum ad hom…

    It was irony, right?

    • janey

      I’d like to think so.

  • Anton Cross

    And the childfree look down on your misery and are not sorry either.

  • Guest

    In addition to being mean spirited, this post is a master class in poor reasoning. I’ve cataloged just a few of the litany of illogical fallacies here:

    http://werenothavingababy.com/childfree/childfree-chris-jeub-master-debater-or-master-of-logical-fallacy/

  • Lance Blackstone

    In addition to being mean spirited, this post is a master class in poor reasoning. I’ve cataloged just a few of the litany of logical fallacies here:

    http://werenothavingababy.com/childfree/childfree-chris-jeub-master-debater-or-master-of-logical-fallacy/

  • Nelson Minica

    The Bible says children are a blessing. Enough said? I wish! I’ve written some articles about the issue at http://www.righttome.com if anyone is interested.

    • janey

      They don’t have to be yours to be a blessing.

      • Nelson Minica

        I applaud anyone who is infertile and opts to adopt, or adopts on top of what God is giving them. That amazes me. 🙂

    • RachaelMall

      That rhetoric does not apply to non-Christians. Or atheists such as myself.

      • Nelson Minica

        Correct, the Bible means little to those that just do whatever is right in their own eyes. I might wish all atheists were Childfree, but that’s probably a bit short-sighted of me.

        From what I have experienced the Bible is the most rational explanation of reality. Everything around us in evidence about the past. DNA, strata, fossils, wooly mammoths, comets, etc… http://creationscience.com is one of my favorite theories if you are open to it.

        • RachaelMall

          A bit? Try a lot. And no, I am not open to it. Been there, done that. I pass on religion.

          • Nelson Minica

            It’s a site about science not religion. Yet again Atheism seems to be the religion of burying your head in the sand and ignoring the cold hard facts…

            • LittleKnives

              Lmao, “cold hard facts”. Do you not see the irony in posting a link to a site titled “creationscience” and saying “cold hard facts”? Religion is not fact based, you can’t prove anything in the bible is true. You are trying to put her and all atheists down because we reject religion, and that she refuses to click your link. Guess what? A lot of atheists used to be people of faith! That might be why she doesn’t want to read your garbage! Also, a lot of atheists despise religion because so many of them condone disgusting acts of violence, rape, and murder! Just read your “Holy book”, especially the parts about Moses, Noah, and the city of Sodom and Gomorrah. Also, don’t try to say that the old testament doesn’t apply, because you follow the 10 commandments, which is in the old testament… yet Jesus came to change the law, so how the fuck does that make any sense? You say you are logic and fact based, but your religion is as full of holes as swiss cheese, and as transparent as water. Also, in regards to your earlier comment on atheists doing whatever they deem right and wrong, if you need religion to be a good person, you are not a good person. All it takes is empathy to be a good person. If you’re only good because you think some giant, invisible, emotionally unstable man with super powers is watching and judging your every move like a kid with Santa Claus… You’re a bad person.

              • Nelson Minica

                As I said above, atheists are very religious, they just don’t admit it. Science is garbage now? The Bible provides the rational behind morality, if we are just overgrown pond scum red in tooth and claw condemning violence, rape, and murder would be irrational. The Bible is a history book too. And the Creator is the Author of Life and Death whether we like that or not. Jesus came to fulfill the law, i.e. replace it with something better. You can either live under the law and die, or repent and accept His substitutionary atonement.

                • LittleKnives

                  You need to look up the definition of “atheist”. The A in atheist stands for “without” and theist, means “god/religion/faith”. Telling me that I am religious but won’t admit it is ridiculous. Actually morality all has to do with society. Morality is subjective. The things that are right to do in our country, might be wrong in another. Your book has plenty of examples where God condones rape and murder. In the bible, God sent a she-bear to kill 3 children just for making fun of an old bald man. Would you say that was justified, that those kids deserved to die for making fun of a man for being bald? Whether you live under the law or not, you are going to die. Also, the bible supports evolution. The talking serpent has legs in the bible, and loses them! Oh, and your book talks about making people from dirt, talking snakes, turning water into wine…. Which would be alchemy, or sorcery… Your religion sounds like it was written by people smoking too much opium.

                  • Nelson Minica

                    religion [ri-lij-uh n] noun 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe…

                    Humanistic Atheistic Evolutionists certainly have that set of beliefs. Maybe Agnostics come closest to saying they have no religion…

                    Not that it matters since the supernatural imaginary event of the Big Bang is not rational, believing in multiple Abiogenesis events is not rational since even one is far beyond impossible as defined by statistics, and increasing information via mutational chaos is not rational as statistics and every experiment using the Scientific method fails to support that fantasy…

                    It would be more rational to believe a typewriter and an instruction manual on how to make a typewriter would just randomly appear than it would be to believe RNA/etc and DNA would…

                    So don’t read the Bible to begin with. But don’t only read your own point of view…

                    Read http://creationSCIENCE.com

                    Read http://creation.com/origin-of-life

                    Read http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/getting-over-the-code-delusion which is not religious at all but it will blow your brain

                    “I know a good many mathematicians, physicists and computer scientists who, like me, are appalled that Darwin’s explanation for the development of life is so widely accepted in the life sciences.” – http://www.math.utep.edu/Faculty/sewell/articles/mathint.html

                • Cooper

                  The rational for morality comes from social and societal instinct in all of us , we are social animales , we prosper coming together and forming scociety , violence , rape and murder are not conducive to either of those human traits . We have inherent morals so we. Can function and prosper an a whole

                • Cooper

                  Nelson , religion is defined as a particular set of of faith and worship. Not as anything that concerns the cause , nature and poupos even of the universe……the Big Bang is very rational . A small point containing and a very large finite amount of energy began rapid expansion and a small percentage of that energy turned to matter e=mc2. It’s all backed by math…..abiogenesis is not a belief it is an explanation for what we see in the fossil record , geological time ,Dna studies and and biology , it’s a theory that explains why we are seeing these things as is evolution by natural selection , we have all the things we see so we tie them together with a logical falsifiable and testable theory.. No experiment has failed to support the ideas of increased information through mutational randomness, if any did then the theory would be disproved. It’s not like we cling to evolution cuz we like it or care that it’s right or wrong . It’s the only theory that made sence of all the data……and you don’t know any mathmatisions , physisists, and computer scientists that are appalled by darwins theory. Nelson it’s taught as fact in every evangelical college in the world ,all christian colleges teach it’s truth it . Given the elements in the universe, the laws of chemistry and physics and enough time , we were inevitable , we are probabilities . Why is it so hard for you to look at the DNA of all animals on this planet and see the connection , branches and intersections . Just look at dna , look at next to other spiecies it’s plain to see

                  • Nelson Minica

                    Funny, since I am a Computer Scientist and a Mathematician appalled by Darwin’s theory. “I know a good many mathematicians, physicists and computer scientists who, like me, are appalled that Darwin’s explanation for the development of life is so widely accepted in the life sciences.” – http://www.math.utep.edu/Faculty/sewell/articles/mathint.html

                    Or, it’s plain to see we have a Common Designer. Homology? “So many exceptions now exist that molecular biologist Michael Denton concluded that the homology theory should be rejected.” https://answersingenesis.org/theory-of-evolution/evidence/does-homology-provide-evidence-of-evolutionary-naturalism/

                    But I’m not asking you to take my word for it since Jesus believed in a literal Creation and Flood: https://answersingenesis.org/genesis/did-bible-authors-believe-in-a-literal-genesis/

                    • Cooper

                      I sent you a friend request on facebook , so we could continue the discussion and you could link me to your group and I’ll link you to mine .
                      Why are you so appalled by darwins theory? The fact that every evangelicle college in the country teaches it ! I thought would help drive home the point that the theory conflicts not with the idea of God creating the universe , Evolutionary theory kicks off with the presumption that life already existed wether created by God , aliens or Abiogenesis and is a theory of how life developed from then until now but it does not concern itself with the origins of life .
                      Darwin was just trying to explain all the data , all the sciences had tons of information on lifes speciation and evolution ( facts alluded to and accepted by Ken ham ) …. He depends on rapid speciation , and admits evolution because we can see it ( look up blind cave fish ) , but what is in question is Darwinian evolution by natural selection . His theory is the only theory thus far that encapsulates and explains all the data ( everything we observe ) .
                      In nearly 200 years there is nothing that we see or find that is not consistent with the theory , we have predictions that we do not see or cannot find but nothing that we see contradicts the theory .even if he is dead wrong at least he tried , why should his theory be appalling to anyone ?

                      If you could come up with any data that contradicts it or a new theory that better encapsulates the data then you would be a hero to all young era there everywhere and I would gladly accept your theory as long as it was falsifiable , testable and does not break the chemical and physical laws of the universe . ….
                      You are a computer scientist and a mathmatitian ? Then it suprises me even more that you site and reference AIG.

                    • Nelson Minica
                • Cooper

                  How did little knives confirm that athiests are religious ?
                  Creation science is not science , the scientific method is not applied therefore it is not science at all.
                  The bible provides outdated , tribal morals .
                  Secular morals are superior in that they are based on real empathy , they evolve with scociety to fit and be relevant to today’s issues . ……condemning rape , murder and violence in very rational to maintain human scociety and therefore advance the state of our species through technology , medicine and education.
                  If violence , rape and murder are rational ideas(without the bible ) to you Nelson then by all means hang on to that book . If keeping scociety safe means keeping you in the book then I’m all for it .
                  But remember your God is a irrational God , he’s a God of war , a jealous God and he wants praise and worship ……all human things by the way , he commits genocide regularly and miracles ( the exodus ) but leaves no evidence for any of them and is a all powerful timeless higher intellegent being , but what he wants is praise?what?

            • RachaelMall

              There is no science in religion. Science does not prove nor disprove God. You talk about facts but state atheism is a religion?!

        • LittleKnives

          The bible is the most rational explanation of reality? What about science books, and Idk, irrefutable EVIDENCE? The bible is not evidence based, but emotionally and spiritually based. You cannot prove anything in the bible is true…it just takes “faith”.

          • Nelson Minica

            You have it backwards. The Bible is the best explanation for the evidence listed above and much more. Atheism/Humanism is the religious faith that everything can be explained without the supernatural (of course the Big Band and abiogenesis and order from chaos are supernatural) but those believers stick their head in the sand like the proverbial ostrich and refuse to admit it.

            • Cooper

              The Big Bang is not at all super natural , it breaks no natural laws,nor does abiogenesis

        • Cooper

          Are you fucking kidding Nelson , I’m an Athiest and my 6 year old son has consistently has recieved more daily gold stars then any othe child in fire lake elementry , and has “consistently demonstrated a unique conflict resolution skill set ” with regard to school bullying . Those are the words of the principal , this is a skill set that I taught him . My 18 month old was walking at 8 months and has already shown empathy for those in pain , or trouble . I feel for your children cuz it seems if you ever put down that book then raping , abusing and murdinging would be logical according to you .needing the bible to know the difference between right and wrong makes you a inherently bad person , you have no moral compass so you find it in the bible . The rest of us can logicly deduce what is right and wrong in this world

        • TheBodecia

          Mate, got to disagree. Lots wife turned to salt? Elijah went up to heaven in a chariot of fire ( UFO), God became a burning bush and spoke to Moses?

    • Cooper

      I read a whole paper artical condemning birth control , so you would rather have millions of unplanned children in this world many to teenage mothers who cannot afford a child , many many on welfare , many the product of rape an incest , and every family like ” 19 kids and counting “. The fact that you elicit an opinion in the negative at all while being a male proves your typical christian judgemental attitude , you have never walked in the shoes of a women with a unwanted pregnancy , yet you pass judgement

  • LittleKnives

    You make it sound like childfree people are trying to convert people into the mindset that a life without children is favorable. My husband and I happen to be childfree, and we love our life the way it is. I will never have to wake up at all hours of the night to change diapers or make bottles. I will never have to go through labor and body-ruining pregnancy. I’m happy about that. Do I try to change peoples mind about having kids? No, because I don’t care enough to try. It’s their business, and I have no say in the matter. However, I’m not sure why you baby factories try to change the minds of people such as myself. My life has no bearing on yours, and my decisions have a miniscule effect on society. So miniscule in fact, that I would say that they hardly matter. So what gives you the right to say that I’m wrong, or childish, or selfish? Would you say that I should consider having children even though I can’t stand them? That I can’t even stand to be in the same room as children? Even when they’re behaving, and laughing, and playing all I want to do is get as far away from them as possible. For some reason children seem to love me, but I don’t even smile or wave at them, I just give them an indifferent glare. Children are chaotic, destructive, messy and loud. Sorry, but you don’t know my mind better than I do, so please don’t go throwing all childfree people into one category. You don’t hear me saying that you guys are selfish polluters and resource suckers, do you?

    • Larry_Sanger

      “You make it sound like childfree people are trying to convert people into the mindset that a life without children is favorable.” Actually, there are people who approach the subject that way, yes. Maybe not most, but definitely some.

      • LittleKnives

        What you might consider us trying to “convert people” is more than likely us just trying to make people aware that having children is a choice. I have known other girls who were depressed because they thought they HAD to get married and have kids, because “that’s what people do”. Guess what, you don’t HAVE to do anything! Once I told her having kids were a choice, her mind was blown, and her life was changed. I didn’t sway her one way or the other. All I said was “people choose to have kids, some people choose not to have them. It’s up to you”.

        • Larry_Sanger

          Agreed. But then there are the people who say that it is morally preferable to be childfree, because it doesn’t harm the environment as much, we’re overpopulating the planet, modern life sucks, life is mostly pain, etc., etc. Blah.

          • LittleKnives

            All of those things are true. All of those reasons are great reasons to not have children. Also, a lot (but not all) of people who identify as CF dislike children. So would you suggest that they have them? I myself for example, can’t stand children. I don’t even like to be in the same room as them. I find nothing about them endearing, charming, or even tolerable. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there who have kids because they are stupid, irresponsible, and have a herd mentality. All while THINKING they want to have kids, but deep down, they know they would be awful parents because they lack the skills to do so. So they have kids, and find out after it’s too late that they HATE being parents, and abuse, neglect, or murder, or rape their children. Or they are so dense that they harm their child unwittingly. So do you think us telling others about the CF lifestyle is such a bad thing? The people who really want children, and would be great parents are going to do it regardless of what we tell them. The ones who are open minded and receptive…well, maybe there is something in them that tells them that they shouldn’t be parents! Maybe we will prevent one less child from experiencing a life of torment and abuse. You never know. BTW, is peddling the CF ideology so much different than people force-feeding their ideas of religion to people? At least we don’t knock on people’s door and disturb them once a week, or prevent you from shutting the door, or threaten you with eternal Hell fire and damnation if you don’t agree with us.

            • Larry_Sanger

              All of those things are not true. No time to debate you, but anyone who doesn’t like children, just like anyone who doesn’t like dogs, probably has something wrong with them.

              • LittleKnives

                Some people dislike dogs because they have been bitten by them. Everyone has a reason for disliking or liking something, it doesn’t mean there is something wrong or right with them. Personally, I find it creepy when people love every single baby they see. I certainly don’t like every single adult I come into contact with, why is it normal to love every single baby or child? It’s not. Child worship is a fairly new concept based on history and how people used to feel about children. Children used to be considered a burden until they were old enough to work and weren’t even allowed to sit at the table when eating, they had to stand and remain silent. That went on for centuries. I don’t like babies because they ruin your life. Your finances, your sex life, your social life, your energy, your youth, your hobbies, personal future plans… All gone for the sacrifice of someone who doesn’t even appreciate it. Children are demanding and rude, and selfish and messy and loud and annoying. They are sociopaths. At least I’m honest with myself, and the world.

                • Larry_Sanger

                  Frankly, you sound like a child yourself

                  • LittleKnives

                    I don’t agree with you so you resort to name calling… Who here is behaving childishly?

                    • Larry_Sanger

                      Nonsense. I rarely say this about people I debate. I’m saying that in my judgment, you sound like a confused high school or college student, which is probably what you are. No time to unconfuse you. Definitely do not have children before you’ve grown up some more. Have the last word.

                    • LittleKnives

                      Well who are you to judge me? I’m a fully grown adult, who happens to have very valid reasons for not wanting to have children. I also happen to HATE children. Nothing about them is appealing to me, they don’t even look cute. They look like midgets, only constantly filthy, sticky, and leaking bodily fluids. Not very appealing. I’m sorry that you have a hard time understanding that life doesn’t have one path, and that there are many options you can take that lead to a fulfilling outcome. Everyone’s journey is a personal one. It’s not one size fits all. What works for some, does not work for everyone, and I have known since I was a kid myself that I didn’t want to have children. I would say the earliest I remember thinking this way, was about 9 years old. Now I’m 24, married to the man of my dreams, and traveling around the world. My life is exactly how I wanted it. Maybe you shouldn’t have had kids because you’re ignorant and closed-minded.

                    • Larry_Sanger

                      I’m sorry, I can’t let this pass without any reply.

                      So, you “happen to HATE children.”

                      Who, then, are you to judge children? You’re saying you hate them. Not only do you hate them, you proudly advertise the fact and defend it online. I take issue with that. I judge you when you judge all children. If you find being judged for holding a certain opinion of children to be outrageous, perhaps you can understand how outrageous I find your judgment of all children, period.

                      And the notion that children are merely “parasites” belies any mature understanding of…life itself. Literally.

                      I’m not saying you are, or that everyone is, obligated to have children. I’d never say that. We all have our own lives to lead.

                      Good luck in your journeys through the world and through life.

                    • LittleKnives

                      I may be a bigot, but hating children isn’t the same as hating African Americans or Asians or Hispanics. The hatred I hold for children is temporary, until they become adults. Well, actually, that’s not completely true either, because I hate most people in general. People are rude, annoying, and selfish… But children are the best example of that. I am judging children based on their actions. If you can show me a normally functioning child who never throws a tantrum, demands things from their parents or others, never hits or shows violent tendencies, never makes messes or unnecessary noise, I will retract my statement. HUMANS are parasites on this planet, but babies and children are parasites on US. Fetuses literally steal your protein and calcium, and use women as hosts before ripping you apart. Then they use your breasts for milk, and all of your money, time, and energy. Kids steal your time, your passions, your energy…everything. I don’t see how kids contribute anything positive to your life. Thankfully, I’m not having any, and if my husband ever decides to change his mind about it, he can go elsewhere. I feel like a man wanting children is almost like attacking women, because men don’t have it nearly as hard when it comes to having kids.

                    • Larry_Sanger

                      You are know nothing of the parent-child relationship, from a parent’s perspective. Your confidence and forceful language makes it sound as if you think you’re quite clever on this subject. I assure you that you are not. When parents have children, they do so, usually, or one hopes, willingly. If not, then there’s a real problem, of course. Mature parents, or people who are “parent material,” don’t regard themselves as slaves or victims to their children. They desperately want their children to be safe, well-cared-for, and happy. They invest themselves in their children, and they hope for good returns. They love their children more than themselves, and that is partly because these little human beings absolutely depend on them and the children desperately need extreme amounts of love if they are to thrive. Good parents embrace the happiness of their children as their own happiness.

                      There are many excellent reasons not to have children. This is not one of them: “Kids steal your time, your passions, your energy…everything. I don’t see how kids contribute anything positive to your life.” Kids do use your time and energy, but that’s one of the most worthwhile uses of your time and energy imaginable: creating and raising a human being. Being a good parent requires passion, as does anything worthwhile. As to contributing something positive to your life, you live on through your children. Children make dying easier; there’s someone to carry on your legacy.

                      If you have no legacy to carry on, if you don’t care about yourself, if you have no ideals, if life to you is merely a series of pleasurable experiences, if you are basically a hedonistic robot, then children won’t do much for you. The rise of a strident “childfree” movement, meaning people who defend their choice not to have children by saying that children are parasites on their precious personal pleasures, is a sad commentary on the moral bankruptcy of post-modern society, as far as I’m concerned.

                    • LittleKnives

                      Well let’s not forget that I also hate children. To me, there isn’t anything on the planet more annoying than children. You forgot to address the fact that they are rude, violent, selfish, make mess and noise, even when they know it’s wrong. Children are sociopaths. There have been studies done. Empathy has to be taught to them. I can see my time being spent in far better endeavors instead of having children. Right now, I am living in Germany and traveling around Europe. I’m learning multiple languages. I study culture, go to historic places, and eat gourmet food and drink expensive wine. I am also studying to be a nurse, so I will be helping others. I literally laughed out loud regarding the whole “legacy” bullshit. What legacy are you leaving behind exactly that is so important you had to contribute to overpopulation? Are you a great composer or inventor? Do you donate large sums of time and money to the impoverished? What exactly, besides religious beliefs and wiping asses and making bottles is your legacy? Unless you are some astounding example of human being, I dont think you should say you are leaving behind a legacy of any kind. Also, the whole “if you don’t care about yourself” crap, I could say that about mothers. If you don’t care about yourself, give up your hobbies for a few years. Ruin your body and your sex life with childbirth instead of waiting for old age to do it for you. Give up sleep and relaxation for a handful of shit stained brats. I take good care of myself. I love myself, and that’s why I would never put myself through the hell that is pregnancy, birth, and child rearing.

                    • Elaine Walkden

                      Unless a parent can guarantee (and they can’t) their kid will not grow up to be a lifelong non-working welfare suck or a criminal, they are not contributing anything to society. A person in and of herself is not an automatic asset to this planet, although everyone will contribute to Earth’s increasing pollution.

                    • Larry_Sanger

                      So, you think that a person has no value and contributes nothing to society if (a) they were ever once on welfare, or (b) they once committed a crime. Interesting perspective.

                      I’m not sure if I’m an “asset to the planet,” but I sure think I’m an asset to myself. Is life not valuable in and of itself?

                    • Bea

                      She clearly stated that those who are LIFELONG welfare recipients or career criminals are of no value to society. I would love to see you argue that those who do nothing but force taxpayers to pay for them or commit crimes actually contribute to society.

                      It looks like you did not learn how to read or think critically in college.

                    • Larry_Sanger

                      I’m not defending welfare recipients and career criminals. I’m saying it’s silly to suppose that “contributing something to society” is the only way in which people get their value. Even most miscreants have some value to themselves and, yes, to society, although some of them might be in some sense a net negative.

                      Anyway, I’m not sure what we’re arguing about anymore…what this has to do with being childfree…

                    • Elaine Walkden

                      I was simply responding to Little Knives, who was responding to you about children being a “legacy”. People act as if it’s some wonderful thing to reproduce. It isn’t. A roach can reproduce. And no, a person is not an asset to the world because they exist. Some people here seem to think so, though. The BINGOs of the ilk, “Maybe the kid will be the one to cure cancer?” as a reason for people to have them? Maybe, but maybe also they’ll be the next serial killer.

                    • LittleKnives

                      Exactly. In my mind, people who breed are less intelligent than those who don’t. They can’t give any reasons why having kids is a good idea, other than “love” and they are unable to think beyond their base instincts to breed. Like pigs.

                    • TheBodecia

                      *if you have no legacy to carry on* what are you expecting everyone to be a Hilton? Mate, children are the clinical definition of a parasite. Children make dying easier? How?

                    • Larry_Sanger

                      Go get an education, you fool. There’s clearly no point explaining such things to you. You need to read old poetry, literature, moral philosophy, and religious literature and stop pretending to understand things you clearly do not.

                    • Bea

                      He isn’t going to respond because he is sooooo busy. How strange that a “busy” person has spent all of his precious time debating viewpoints!

                    • LittleKnives

                      “Larry Sanger”, or whoever the Hell this person is, is a fucking moron. He can sit there and pretend to be Larry all day long, but I’m not buying it. I have a hard time believing that someone who is so smart (the real Larry), could possibly ever be interested in arguing with random people online about whether or not they breed. This guy is full of horse shit.

                    • Bea

                      Yup!

                    • Bea

                      As I said before, my mother thought her children were parasites.

                      If a mother can say that about her own kids, it isn’t so far fetched that a childfree person can have the same beliefs.

                      I dislike poorly behaved children. I have desire to spend time with kids who have no manners or respect for authority. However, I do love being around my nieces and my friends’ children because they are great kids.

                    • Larry_Sanger

                      “my mother thought her children were parasites” — so the f— what? I mean, really! I’m sorry to hear your mother was so unpleasant. I’m not sure that you can draw any interesting general conclusions from that. Yes, some people’s mothers were awful. Those mothers should have behaved differently or not even had children. Right. So?

                    • TheBodecia

                      Hey doll, I get you. I am not a fan of children at all. They have no appeal and as long as you do not harm them in any way shape or form, who cares. Just remember when you get done travelling to start putting away about 25% of your income and keep fit and healthy. And ignore the haters 🙂

                    • LittleKnives

                      Also, I have to add that there is nothing wrong with not wanting to have children. I am worth more than whether or not I procreate… I am more than a walking uterus, waiting to house a parasite.

                    • Bea

                      You clearly aren’t very bright because you are a one trick pony.

                      Rather than coming up with well written and thoughtful responses, you just bleat “You’re childish! Grow up!”

                      Frankly, you sound like an idiot who tries to win arguments by repeating the same phrases. Don’t you have any intelligent responses that aren’t filled with condescending statements?

                    • Larry_Sanger

                      No, Bea, your inability to understand my arguments doesn’t mean I don’t have any. And I can call a spade a spade even as I make those arguments. I fully admit and agree, and don’t apologize, for making condescending statements. The reason for that is simply that the appallingly idiotic things some of you are saying need to be identified as such.

                  • Elaine Walkden

                    Little Knives doesn’t SOUND like anything, they’re written words, not spoken ones.

              • Bea

                Well, you clearly DO have time to debate others if you are continuing to respond to posts. Obviously, you are not as busy as you are pretending to be. What kind of pathetic fool PRETENDS that they have so much to do?

                • Larry_Sanger

                  It was true 25 days ago, Bea. This is weak.

                  • Bea

                    You’re talking about your pretend schedule today quite a bit…with the same people you claim to be too busy to speak with. If you are so swamped, how are you able to return to the same site more than three times in one day? The only thing that is weak here is your frontal lobe.

          • Bea

            Are you suggesting that extra people on the planet does not harm the environment in any way? LOLOLOL
            For some people, life IS mostly pain. Not everyone has a happy life and it isn’t always within their control.

            • Larry_Sanger

              No, genius, I’m saying that the fact that some places in the world are overcrowded is not a good argument for why nobody should have children, or why any randomly-selected person should not have children. Sorry if this is hard to understand.

              Life has been getting better, on the historical scale. Are you saying that it would be better if the human race had never come into existence? Life in general probably includes a lot of pain, regardless of species. Are you opposed to life in general for that reason?

              Being human, being capable of making choices, the extent to which our happiness is within our control is actually deeply dependent on how much we think it is within our control. If you feel yourself to be out of control, you will be, practically by definition, depressed. And the inverse is true.

              • Bea

                That’s okay. It is clear that you are unable to articulate your viewpoints without being snarky to others, which says far more about your character than you willing able to admit. I love the way you keep saying that you aren’t even going to respond to posts, yet you CONTINUE TO TYPE RESPONSES. Looks like you are a little bit confused.

                I never said that it would be better if the human race never came into existence, so I don’t know why you are fabricating lies to prove your erroneous beliefs. Just as you pointed out that certain assumptions were never explicitly stated, you are now making the same kind of assumptions that you were standing up against. How ironic!

                Yes, humans are capable of making choices. However, you are oversimplifying happiness by realizing that some adversity is outside of our control. If a child is born into poverty with neglectful parents, how much control does that child truly have? If an adult suffers from many illnesses and is unable to support himself, does he have control over how happy he is going to be when he can’t even enjoy health and self actualization like other adults?

  • Guest

    We’d love to have all you childfree folks…and the reasonable parents out there…follow us!
    we’re {not} having a baby!
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    Follow @nothavingababy

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  • Guest

    So what happens when your child is homosexual? I guess adoption, right?

  • Guest

    And when your child tells you he/she is homosexual… what then?

    I left this comment before, but I must have made a mistake while posting because I don’t see it here.

  • janey

    Your arrogance is setting you up for a catastrophic fall. Be careful.

    • Larry_Sanger

      You know, that’s the reaction I have to the strident, ideological elements within the childfree movement. It’s one thing to say, “I don’t want children, and that’s OK.” Sure, fine. It’s another thing to say, “My choice not to have children is the better choice, because…” In the face of history and human nature, that’s pretty stunning hubris.

      • LittleKnives

        The thing you are failing to realize is that they are saying it’s the better choice for THEM because of those reasons! I don’t care if other people want to have kids. It’s their lives. I just hope that they really thought it through and that they are prepared for everything parenting asks of them. I hope that they are loving and mature and have the funds for it, and don’t sponge off of the government. Uncle Sam is not your baby daddy. Also, why are you so invested in this? If you’re some internet developer hot shot or PhD. I would really think that you of all people would have better things to do with your time. That is unless you aren’t who you claim to be.

        • Larry_Sanger

          I have repeatedly said I don’t fault any individual for not having children. What I fault people for is saying that in general, not due to individual circumstances but due to circumstances that all to us all, we should not have children.

      • Bea

        Is it okay for parents to say that having children is the better choice?
        I’m pretty confident that I can guess what your answer will be.

        • Larry_Sanger

          What “it is okay for parents to say” depends entirely on the would-be parent. 14 year olds could become parents, but they shouldn’t.

          • Bea

            I am pleasantly surprised by your response.

            I laugh at welfare moms who have kids just to get more government benefits.

            Those broads look down on me for not having kids, but I know I am far more intelligent and hardworking than them. There is no reason to bring children into the world if they have to live in poverty.

  • sjp

    I’m married, child-free by choice and I thought that piece in Time was offensive. We all make choices in life and that article was judgemental and anti-woman. It was sexist – because feminism was nothing if not about freeing women to make their own choices. I admire women who are really good mothers just as I admire women who are successful in other areas. Doing something well takes thought, passion and commitment – and it seems to me that you can apply that to motherhood as well as work, art or anything else.

    Frankly, though, I was unaware that there as a child-free ideology. It’s simply a choice I made in life but it doesn’t drive my life or decision-making. It was right for me in the way that having children is right for others. I wouldn’t advocate either for or against having children – it’s a personal choice. I enjoy kids, I like having them in my life and have meaningful relationships with the children of friends and relatives. But I don’t regret my decision.

    There is one thing that I find funny and that is the statement you sometimes hear: if everyone decided to not have kids humans would cease to exist. It would never happen, no one is advocating that and we are no where near this being an issue.

    • I chuckled when I read “I was unaware that there was such a thing as child-free ideology.” Wendy and I felt the same thing when marginalized with the “Quiverfull” term. Having children was a personal conviction of our own, and it is troubling to be accused of being part of an ideology.

      This post was, for the record, a response to the TIME article. I’m glad you found TIME’s take just as offensive, as I have found Quiverfull articles offensive, too.

  • whatajoke

    Holy shit you guys are such twats. Drink the fucking kool-aid already.

  • Fattysgonnafat

    Don’t you ever think that perhaps you’re the selfish one for having sixteen children? Are you aware that the most environmentally damaging thing you can do is have a child?

    Basically you’ve burdened your country AND your environment with the cost of having 14 more children than is reasonable. Like a fatty who can’t get enough candy, you’ve demanded more and more, breeding your own little tribe and trying to pass it off as normal. Not to mention that having so many kids means there’s no way you can reasonably meet all their needs. Can you afford to give them all the opportunities that the parents of two children would be able to? Of course not. Have you curtailed their childhood by forcing them to continually raise the babies shooting out of your uncontrollable wife? Of course you have.

    Basically your family is a classic example of greed, and a great advertisement for birth control. And you call us selfish.

  • Evie Bear

    Andrea Yates killed her 5 children by drowning them in a bathtub, and she’s not alone. Thousands of children are killed by their parents every year. Maybe people who are adamant about not having kids benefit the world by encouraging people to think about whether or not they can handle being parents.

    No, you cannot just “try out” raising a human being, with rights and needs, to see if you like it. You don’t get to mess with an innocent person to “try out” parenting.

    Every crack baby, kid who aged out of foster care, child of a pedophile, etc in the world hates this BS article.

    Here’s a handy guide to understanding child freedom:

    1. Some people think that parenting isn’t for them
    2. They might be the next Andrea Yates
    3. They might be right about the fears they have, and that’s enough of a reason to leave them alone
    4. After they decide to be childfree, they will try to preach to the choir-which draws in more people who might be more like Andrea Yates than Mother Teresa
    5. Leave them alone as well

    As for me-my mother thinks people who don’t want children are ridiculous. She’s upset that I won’t be giving her grandchildren. But… It’s her fault. She’s a drug addicted, child abusing, monster.

    I can’t have kids. Just can’t do it. I see a pattern in my family of abuse that is caused by genetic mental illnesses that a few members of every generation have. My grandma, my mom and her sister, and my older brother all have it, whereas a bunch of other people don’t.

    I refuse to pass it down. I will not gamble with a human being’s life. People are not here for my amusement and I think it’s sick that you believe that you can “try out” a person, or otherwise take chances with their well being. What do I do if I am right? Take my baby back to the store? Kill him or her?

    Why don’t you spend less time focusing on stupid stuff you read online and spend more time raising your brood of 16 people? They need you more than we do.

    • Larry_Sanger

      Agreed. You and Andrea Yates shouldn’t have, or shouldn’t have had, children. All too many people today are selfish and self-absorbed, and they are not fit to be good parents. I really wonder if Chris Jeub disagrees, though.

      • Bea

        Everyone talks about what a “joy” and “blessing” it is to have children.
        I think that parents lie to themselves to justify all the hardship that comes with having kids.

        My mother had five children. If children were so “wonderful”, she would not have been extremely angry and resentful of all that she had to give up for her kids. She also would not have taken out her frustration on her children with beatings and cruel words. My mother referred to her children as “parasites” and constantly complained about how much money it cost to raise kids. I wish my mother never had children because perhaps she would have been much happier. Now she has all these regrets and wants to be friends with me. I can be polite and affectionate to my mother but I will never be her friend. She is upset that her only daughter does not want kids and she believes that her parenting mistakes turned me off motherhood.

        It is also very easy for a man to say that he wants children because males go through nothing compared to women. From what I can see, men do not take much of a parenting role. It is the mothers who are bogged down with housework and childrearing. I had some man tell me that it is just as difficult to be a father but I laughed in his face. I also asked him to be honest about how much childrearing he did and this man became very quiet. LOLOL Fathers do NOTHING.

        • Larry_Sanger

          What an unpleasant little troll you are. You actually deny that it can be a joy and blessing to have children? Ridiculous. You take the experience of your own cruel, mean mother as representative of all mothers, or of parenthood generally? “Fathers do NOTHING”?? You’re an idiot if you think so; that’s just not worth responding to seriously. Look, it might not be obvious to you, but it will be obvious to any mature reader looking at this that (a) you have mommy issues and (b) your mommy issues are not a sound foundation for a philosophical defense of being childfree. They are a good explanation of why you don’t (and maybe shouldn’t, not anytime soon) have children. But no, your experience is not representative. Sorry, but it’s true. And if you want to say that many others are in your position: that’s granted as well. Lots of people become parents who shouldn’t become parents. But the problem in that case is not with parenthood and having children. The problem is with the moral degradation into which our society has fallen, if so few people really would make good parents.

          • Bea

            Actually, you are the idiot because you need to call other people names to prove your point. Where is that “maturity” you keep speaking of now? LOL

            I’m sure you got your “degree” from a cereal box, because you certainly do not express yourself like the academic you claim to be.

            Why are you so defensive and angry if you are certain that most fathers are involved parents? There have been studies that show that women do SEVEN TIMES the housework and childrearing that men do, even when the women are working outside of the home. I wish I had a dollar for every wife who complained about how little her husband does. I often hear men refer to taking care of their children as “babysitting.” I suggest you do some research on the unfair labor division in most households.

            My experience is representative of anyone who had an abusive childhood. I know that in your little world, every parent is loving and wonderful. However, abuse of children is far more common than you are aware of. Yes, I do have mommy issues like so many others in the world. So what? Sure, having children CAN bring joy but I shared my story to show that parenthood doesn’t ALWAYS make people happy. If you were as intelligent as you believe yourself to be, you would acknowledge that fact.

            The more you post, the more you are making yourself look like just the kind of parent childfree people can’t stand. You are sanctimonious and arrogant just because you did something that requires no kind of talent. Procreating is the easiest and most banal thing a human can do, fertility issues notwithstanding. If you are as close minded and ignorant as you are showing yourself to be here, I feel sorry for your children. I’m sure you jump down their throats if they do anything that Papa Dearest doesn’t agree with.

            • Larry_Sanger

              “I know that in your little world, every parent is loving and wonderful.” Sure.

              Arguing with others here is fun, but shoveling out the crap in your pungent ideological stables, Bea, is a waste of time. I have a few minutes to argue with some people, but not with you.

              • Bea

                How pathetic can you be if you LIE about being busy?

                If you were so pressed for time, you wouldn’t have time to post ridiculous platitudes and constantly repeating yourself because you can’t think of better responses.

                I bet you will take time out of your imaginary schedule to respond to this message as well. Time to check into the nursing home, Grandpa. The dementia is making you delusional.

      • SkewedPerception

        Some of the most selfish, self-absorbed people I’ve ever known. are parents.

        • Larry_Sanger

          I can’t argue with that. It’s an excellent thing that some people have the honest self awareness to recognize that they are selfish and self absorbed and would not make fit parents. Good for them.

      • Mary Kidd

        My daughter does not want children. Fine by me. She has worked with drug addicts who are trying to get clean, she buys food/coffee for homeless people she sees on the street, she volunteers on suicide hotlines. I don’t think she’s selfish, at all.

  • Hilary Tsai

    I couldn’t stop laughing at your pitiful “rebuttal”. It’s funny how butthurt parents get when people dare to speak out about enjoying the childfree life.

    • Bea

      It is because they feel threatened by the joy of childfreedom.
      They are jealous that they are tied down with kids.

  • SkewedPerception

    I respect a devoted, loving parent, but I also respect people who
    want nothing to do with raising children and don’t give in to pressure to have them
    be it from a spouse, family, etc. The whole “selfish” argument is
    ridiculous. I’m not referring to all the exceptional mothers and fathers here, but people have always had children for self-serving reasons that not only don’t support the well-being of the child but directly threaten it. Nobody has the default moral high ground here. If you know in your bones you are incapable of loving or caring for a child as a parent, not having one is an act of kindness.

  • Overtaxed

    “How is it at all logically possible to insist that you would not enjoy that which you have never had?

    Forgive me for name-calling, but is it fair to say this view is childish? It’s like insisting to hate a food that you have never tried. Think about it: these people are insisting that children would never bring them anything other than whatever bad things they conjured up in their head.”

    It, of course, is not possible to argue with certainty that your life would be better with a child until you try it. However, the same could be said of skydiving. Or moving to India. Or becoming a heroin addict. And, of course, all of those things share one thing that having a child does not; you can stop skydiving/using heroin and move back to the US. If you have a child and don’t like it, you’ve destroyed 3 lives (you, your partner and the child’s). IMHO, if you have even a slight bit of hesitiation that you might not want to be a parent, please, do us all a favor and DON’T. Not having a child is much better than having an unwanted child.

    Remember, nobody asks to be born; you’re not denying anyone except yourself by not having a child. If you can’t provide a great home and aren’t 100% sure that you want to do it, please, don’t. The old advice “maybe means yes” has led to more broken homes and lifelong resentments than I could possibly count.

    Survey after survey show the same thing; a lot of people with children aren’t as happy as they were before they had children. They have nobody to blame but themselves; and, now we have another child in this world from an unhappy/broken home, not what we need.

    • I’d like to see these surveys. Please post some links. It sounds like a lot, but just three will do.

      And I will be conscious of the sources, so stick with credible ones, please.

      • Overtaxed

        From the Max Plank institute. They drawn an erroneous conclusion from this data, so it takes some real digging to figure out what’s going on here. I suggest starting with the charts in the back. The decide to focus on the only indicator that’s at all positive (fixed effects) and discount the OLS and RE models.

        http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.demogr.mpg.de%2Fpapers%2Fworking%2Fwp-2012-013.pdf&ei=fJisU4jkOuzUsASojICoCQ&usg=AFQjCNGgQsDqUF4fkXCgReZdXUxO90xNdw&sig2=MBBt5neQDYEAqJLcrVyhrg&bvm=bv.69837884,d.b2U

        https://suite.io/laura-owens/1j3m266

        From Daniel Gilbert’s great book (Stumbling on Happiness):

        http://www.businessinnovationgroup.org/parenting_happiness_productivity/

        Daniel’s research is really the most damning because it shows a sharp drop in life satisfaction that is not recovered until children leave home.

        And here’s a more balanced view of a few different studies:

        http://www.livescience.com/42533-parents-similar-happiness-to-nonparents.html

        Here’s the thing. Children are widely expensive. If the best you can hope for is a very marginal increase in life satisfaction (and, that, of course, assumes everything goes well), is it really worth taking that risk? If these graphs showed a huge uptick in joy/well-being, it would be one thing. But, the most “kid friendly” studies basically show “little impact” on happiness. The least show a marked drop that doesn’t recover until your children leave.

        • canaduck

          I notice he never responded to you.

        • Larry_Sanger

          I find it plausible that parents don’t have as much satisfaction when they have children. Raising children is hard.

          What I doubt the surveys take much into consideration is the fact that, for a (good, devoted) parent, we own the happiness of our children. They are, especially while small, extensions of ourselves. Their happiness is our happiness. The surveys no doubt did not measure that. A child begins life as literally part of the body of the mother. In the traditional arrangement (obviously it doesn’t always work out this way), the child draws sustenance from her body and love and sheer work, and the father’s contribution can be no less by supporting, guiding, and teaching the child. This leaves the parents less time to themselves, yes, one hopes. If not, they probably aren’t very good parents. Good parents willingly give of themselves because they have indeed embraced their children’s happiness as their own.

          Those of you who complacently cite surveys that show that parenthood is a sacrifice (which falls into the “duh” department), and use that to justify being “child-free,” definitely should not have children. You are not, or not yet, constitutionally disposed to be good parents. To be good parents, you have to be willing to give up some of your happiness to some little person(s) whose happiness depends on you, and whose happiness you take the deepest joy and satisfaction in.

          If this means nothing to you, or is outweighed by your survey results, then by all means, it’s preferable that you not have children. Leave the breeding to people who have a broader understanding of life. Let complacent, unreflective selfishness be an evolutionary and cultural dead-end, a curious and short-lived feature of the early 21st century.

          • marylain

            > Leave the breeding to people who have a broader understanding of life.

            Who exactly gives you the right to say that childfree people don’t have a broader understanding of life? XD

            • Larry_Sanger

              I wasn’t referring to all “child free” people, now was I?

            • Larry_Sanger

              You seem to be the sort of person who goes out of her way to find ways to deliberately invent ways of misconstruing your opponent’s arguments only in order to feign outrage.

              No, genius, I was not saying that childfree people as a whole lack a broad understanding of life. I was saying that someone for whom the following means nothing lacks a broad understanding of life (in other words, is pretty “green” and not very mature):

              “To be good parents, you have to be willing to give up some of your happiness to some little person(s) whose happiness depends on you, and whose happiness you take the deepest joy and satisfaction in.”

              One of the key features of immaturity is self-absorption or as your parents no doubt told you, “It’s not all about you.” The immature tend to be naturally narcissistic, and as they get older they get over it. When a person is more capable of sacrificing for and identifying with another person’s happiness, then they’re more prepared to have children—or to do something else (such as teaching or taking care of the sick or whatever) that requires sacrifice.

              Of course, there are people who, whether for reasons of narcissism, an important career, lack of opportunity, or whatever, never throughout their lives are in a position to sacrifice their happiness for anyone else. Those people can be very wise in many ways. But they do lack a full grasp of the human experience, because self-sacrifice for another, needy human being is an important part of our experience, without we wouldn’t be here (or we’d be a different and much less pleasant species).

          • Overtaxed

            Unfortunately, the evolutionary dead end isn’t “complacent, unreflective selfishness be an evolutionary and cultural dead-end” it’s intelligence. Intelligence is the best indicator of how many children a family will have in a 1st world country. Especially female intelligence, as you approach 120 IQ (2 standard deviations from the norm), childbirth starts to drop off a cliff.

            Introspection and ability to think critically seems to be linked to not having many/any children. This is a massive problem; intelligence is incredibly important in our society today and yet, for some reason, it’s highly selected against by evolution.

            • Larry_Sanger

              This is completely unresponsive to my comment. I criticized the surveys you cited. I assume you agree with my criticism, since you didn’t respond?

              But you raise a new point that is also worth responding to. You might well be right that intelligent people have fewer children. Of course, correlation not being causation, this might be because highly intelligent women are more likely to have demanding professional jobs and no time for children. But it is almost certainly not intelligence per se which has caused intelligent women not to reproduce, since intelligence levels have not increased significantly in the last century, even while birth rates have precipitously dropped.

              The causes, of course, are cultural. The relevant correlation is college; if you’re more intelligent, you’re more likely to go to college and thus fall in with a mindset that is, dismayingly and entirely wrongheadedly, unsupportive of and in some ways actually hostile to children and family. Feminists have, poisonously, indoctrinated two generations of women to believe that raising children is not a deeply satisfying and deeply worthwhile endeavor, worthy of all of their time and attention (should they make that choice).

              Some women I know go all out this way and consider themselves “professional mothers”; and, no, they don’t tend to be religious. They do tend to be very smart.

              As to the claim, “Introspection and ability to think critically seems to be linked to not having many/any children,” this is just a bizarre and puzzling if it is meant to describe a *causal* link. Surely you aren’t claiming that intelligence, or “introspection and ability to think critically,” actually causes people not to have children. That would be, um, kind of ironic.

              • Overtaxed

                Interesting comment; we disagree on some points, but appreciate your POV.

                “Of course, correlation not being causation, this might be because highly intelligent women are more likely to have demanding professional jobs and no time for children. But it is almost certainly not intelligence per se which has caused intelligent women not to reproduce, since intelligence levels have not increased significantly in the last century, even while birth rates have precipitously dropped.”

                In my view, it is intelligence that’s the factor. But you’re right, intelligence hasn’t increased much/at all in 100 years, so, of course, it’s not the only factor. Intelligence 100 years ago in no way conferred the ability to really control family size to a significant degree (it did to some degree, but not anywhere near the degree it does today); now intelligence allows women to understand birth control, take it as directed and have an extremely high likelyhood they will not be a parent unless they want to be. Those who are less intelligent are not as effective in using BC methods.

                “The causes, of course, are cultural. The relevant correlation is college; if you’re more intelligent, you’re more likely to go to college and thus fall in with a mindset that is, dismayingly and entirely wrongheadedly, unsupportive of and in some ways actually hostile to children and family. Feminists have, poisonously, indoctrinated two generations of women to believe that raising children is not a deeply satisfying and deeply worthwhile endeavor, worthy of all of their time and attention (should they make that choice).”

                I’m only quoting this because I could not agree more. I have nothing to add/change/remove or argue about (which is quite rare for me).

                “Surely you aren’t claiming that intelligence, or “introspection and ability to think critically,” actually causes people not to have children. That would be, um, kind of ironic.”

                Actually, I am claiming exactly that. Intelligence causes people to think hard about the choice to have children and, in some cases, forgo having them at all. It also, as you correctly point out, opens a lot of doors (college, high power careers) that are not available to the non-intelligent, further depressing the birth rates. However, the data here is pretty clear, as a woman’s IQ gets higher, her fecundity falls. The man’s IQ is less correlated, it’s really intelligent women who decide not to have children or, alternately, delay until it’s too late. Likely because they are the most likely to expose and become poisoned by the feminist messaging telling them that they are wasting their lives raising children, but living the dream sitting in an office for 80 hours per week working a job they hate. This is the modern cancer that infects many 1st world societies today; and, frankly, I don’t see anything reversing the course until we hit a real crisis.

  • Karen Sharp

    Wow…I was going to leave a comment saying that what other people choose to do about having/not having children is none of our business, as long as they aren’t employing abortion as their means of “birth control” and murdering innocent people. But after reading some of the comments, I am just stunned. My mouth dropped to the floor as I don’t think I have EVER seen such evil, unfeeling people all in one place before, and I think I’ve changed my mind. Not all, but the majority of people commenting who are proud of their childfree decisions are so arrogant, hateful, spiteful and selfish. Life is truly all about them, isn’t it, and possibly sometimes animals, but someone who “can’t stand” children is nothing but a JERK, plain and simple. If you got your heads out of your own butts for once maybe you’d realize that life is more than just about you being happy or getting a full night’s sleep or not getting stretch marks. We owe it to our future to have and raise children or at the very least support those who do. It is not a small job, it’s the most important job in the world – we are bringing up human beings! There is no more important job than that! And you’re family is just wonderful, Chris! You don’t have to be perfect to be a parent, and you certainly don’t have to be rich. You just have to be a decent, kind, loving person. If you are and you choose not to have kids, that’s a darn shame. If you aren’t and you choose not to have kids, well, I hope you reform yourself anyway, that’s all I’m going to say, and if you aren’t going to have kids at least do SOMETHING positive for society other than things you get paid for, because that too is selfish.

    • brittany mathis

      Omg who cares? ! We can be selfish and self absorbed. It’s our lives and we chose to be that way get over it.

      • Larry_Sanger

        You can. And if you do, when you are old, you will be miserable as a result. That’s kind of how it works, you will discover.

        But with any luck, you’ll grow up. If you don’t, let’s hope you don’t breed.

        • LittleKnives

          So having children isn’t selfish? You had them because you wanted them. They might eventually have depression or other mental issues and begrudge you and your wife for forcing life upon them. Not everyone thinks life is some miraculous gift to be thankful for. Life is full of struggle and hardships, and only people born into a place of comfort or privilege have the arrogance to think otherwise. Go to Africa where children are being starved and raped and dying of parasites and disease that life is miraculous and that they should be thankful to be alive.

          • Larry_Sanger

            There’s no clear fact of the matter about whether having children is, or is not, selfish. It’s kind of beside the point. There are some good reasons that particular individuals shouldn’t have children. That’s granted. I fully admit that anyone who says she doesn’t want children for any reason should definitely not have them. I.e., is doing something wrong if she does.

            If life is not in any sense a gift and worth living, then nothing is. There is something quite nihilistic about some points I hear in this child-free movement. If it’s just about not being obligated, then of course you’re not obligated and I’m on your side there. But if your position is that you shouldn’t have children because children suck and life sucks, then you’re just mentally screwed up; you don’t have an interesting philosophical position.

        • brittany mathis

          Actually I’m 21. And honestly I don’t care what you think. If I want to be selfish I will be selfish. I am the most important person and I matter above all else. I don’t need long term relationships for happiness. As long as I have money I’ll be fine but thanks for worrying.

          • Larry_Sanger

            Golly, Brittany, I do kind of worry for you. The idea that you don’t need long-term relationships for happiness goes against the wisdom of the ages, which is not something to cast aside lightly. Careful. Anyway, I’m a stranger to you, so I will stop giving advice.

    • brittany mathis

      I can also name lots of things more important than being a parent. Like money. And beauty. And animals.

      • Larry_Sanger

        Good lord. How old are you, 12? What an appalling thing to say. And the 10 people who voted this up: criminy!

        The fact that your parents decided to be parents caused you to exist. You wouldn’t be here without them. So you’re saying that money, beauty, and animals are more important than the very reason for your existence?

        • LittleKnives

          That’s what’s most important in MY existence. Who are we offending or hurting, some little blob that doesn’t exist? Why do our life preferences bother you? You don’t even know us…

          • Larry_Sanger

            You seem to be deliberately misunderstanding, or anyway not making any effort to understand. Obviously I’m not denying that people value different things. The claim was a general one: “I can also name lots of things more important than being a parent. Like money.” She did not say “things that I currently value more than my becoming a first-time parent.” That would actually be reasonable. But it’s not what she said. She said, rather clearly, that parenthood was less important than money, beauty, and animals. Which is, of course, absurd. I didn’t make any comment on “our life preferences.” I made a comment on a general assertion about the relative value of things.

        • brittany mathis

          I didn’t ask to be born and I could care less that I could’ve never existed. And to answer your question yes I do view those things as more important.

    • Dr.Laura Ross

      So my question to you would be this: Does having children guarantee that you have done something positive to society? If a doctor saves lives for thirty years before retiring and finds him/herself retired as someone that never found the time or means to have children does that mean they didn’t do anything positive to society? What happens to those that wanted to have certain time consuming careers that benefit society but chose to leave the working world to raise children, only to have their children take another humans life and spend the rest of theirs on death row???? did those parents have a positive
      contribution to society?

      • Larry_Sanger

        I’m not Karen, but I agree mostly with her. I’d answer your question by saying that she’s not talking about people who set out to do something positive for society. It would be wrong to fault anyone, period, just because they didn’t have children. What she faults people for is defending this choice by saying they hate children, that the reason they would never have children is that children require sacrifice (what in life that is worth having doesn’t require sacrifice?), etc. I agree with Karen on this, very strongly. In short and in my own words, some childfree people offer some really morally repelling, or logically suspect, reasons for being childfree. My response to them is (1) damn right, you shouldn’t have children, and (2) grow up. Dr. Laura Ross, I doubt you fall into that category.

        • LittleKnives

          So you feel you can answer for other people?

          • Larry_Sanger

            No, I was answering for myself.

            Do you?

            • LittleKnives

              Dr. Laura Ross was asking Karen a question. So you felt obligated to answer for Karen? I see no where in that question the name “Larry Sanger” being mentioned.

              • Larry_Sanger

                Noticed this just now as I looked over this highly interesting page.

                I am perfectly free to answer questions in forums that are directed to others. I wasn’t preventing Karen from answering, and I made it clear that I was answering for myself, not for her.

                This sort of rhetorical tactic is silly and shows you probably have nothing more intelligent to say. Two years have passed, though. Maybe you’ve grown up a little, LittleKnives.

    • RachaelMall

      So…in the end you call people who think differently from you “arrogant, hateful, spiteful and selfish”. Good job.

      • Larry_Sanger

        No, she didn’t specify “people who think different from” her, now did she? She referred to “the majority of people commenting who are proud of their childfree decisions.” This is a tiny, tiny fraction of the people who think differently from her.

        • LittleKnives

          So we are bad people and should be ashamed of who we are instead of proud of who we are? I say bullshit to that. We should all be proud of who we are. Childfree people are just a little more loud about it because we get pushed down and tried to be fit into a little box like the rest of society because they aren’t comfortable with our choices….so we get mad and display it even more! If the breeders didn’t care so much about how we lived our lives, do you think there would be tv shows and articles written about it? Or do you think we would all just live quietly and peacefully? It’s the Breeders who are most proud of all, trust me, they go around waving the martyr flag in one hand, while simultaneously waving the toughest mommy flag in the other. And when they’re not doing that, they post pictures of their naked kid, or shitty diapers. Ugh.

          • Larry_Sanger

            You don’t have any reason to be “proud of who you are.” You should be proud of your accomplishments, not of “who you are,” whatever the hell that means. Choosing not to have children is not an accomplishment. Defending that choice is not an accomplishment, it is merely a position, and not one that, on an individual basis, I disagree with.

            I don’t fault people for not having children. I wish to defend the choice to have children against inane and ill-informed attacks on that choice by, apparently, people like you.

            Anyway, I’m seriously done with you. Grow up!

            • LittleKnives

              So I should only be proud of my accomplishments, yet you have said you’re proud of your kids. What exactly have they accomplished? Tying their shoes? Learning how to hold a fork? Oh wow, I’m so impressed. I don’t give a fuck if people want to have kids, I just want them to keep their stories about shitty diapers to themselves, not to lecture me about my lifestyle, and not have their kids around me.

    • 2Well

      So we are allowed to not want children, as long as we are miserable about it. And then we should make ourselves into someone who wants children. Why can’t our lives be about being happy? Why give up our dreams and be miserable just to bring up more human beings who are then expected to give up their dreams and happiness to bring up more human beings, who are again expected to give up their happiness for their kids, and so on and so forth. Who actually gets to be happy in this cycle? Is life and adulthood all about making yourself miserable? Is being miserable the only way to be a good person?

    • Bea

      To become a parent, one only has to reproduce. Decency and kindness have nothing to do with biological functions.

      Why do you believe that you get to decide what life is about for others? Talk about arrogance!

      You are clearly dumb enough to believe that positive contributions for society cannot be compensated monetarily. Here are some careers which involve compensation for positively contributing to society: Teacher, lawyer, nurse, doctor, engineer, social worker etc etc etc.

      I am childfree and I work for an agency which provides health care services for senior citizens. I speak to thousands of senior citizens and their families about their challenges and find help for them. You’re right though-I am just a selfish and hateful person because I choose not to have kids. Oh the stupidity!

      You do know that Oprah and Mother Teresa did not have children right? Go ahead and tell me those women are selfish because they never had babies.

      • Larry_Sanger

        “I am just a selfish and hateful person because I choose not to have kids.” That really would be stupid. She didn’t say that though, did she? I thought she was referring to “the majority of people commenting who are proud of their childfree decisions.” It’s one thing to accept your choice as morally in the clear. It’s another thing to be proud, as if you were doing the right thing.

        I’m not proud that I chose to be a parent. I wasn’t proud that I wasn’t a parent, before I became a parent. Those are or were just neutral facts about me.

        • LittleKnives

          Why do you ad Karen take issue with how strangers on the internet live their lives at all, whether or not they hate children? Are you so arrogant to think that it’s any of your business or that your opinion will hold any weight? People are going to I’ve their lives how ever they want despite how it makes other people feel… Especially some random person they couldn’t give two shits about.

          • Larry_Sanger

            One last time. I don’t take issue with how strangers on the internet live their lives. You should look up “straw man fallacy.” I take issue with silly people who claim to hate children, that it is more important to protect the environment than to have one child, and so on and so forth. In other words, I am not talking about individual choices, but general principles used (or not) to justify choices. I don’t care about any one person’s individual choices. I care about philosophy, or general principles, because I’m a thinking human being. You should try it sometime!

            • LittleKnives

              I do not “claim” to hate children. I do hate them, and if you knew me, and saw my actions and reactions towards children, it would be evident to you. I’m not an environmentalist, but I do think that the beauty of nature is much more awe-inspiring than a fat little goblin who does nothing, and adds nothing of value to life. I honestly see no benefit in squatting out a few crotch droppings. Maybe if you’re a martyr, or a masochist, or someone who can’t figure out what they want for themselves so they just do what everyone else does. Just because you don’t accept my philosophy or reasons behind not having kids, doesn’t mean that I’m a non-thinking person. You’re extremely childish and immature. I also don’t think you are who you claim to be, and if you are, you should be ashamed of yourself. Go write some wikipedia articles, and leave childfree people alone. Go play with your kids or something, don’t you have something more “important” to do?

              • Larry_Sanger

                “I do not “claim” to hate children. I do hate them, and if you knew me, and saw my actions and reactions towards children, it would be evident to you.”

                You’re a pathetic human being and deserve no attention from anyone here. I’m sure you’re an awful representative of the childfree point of view. You need mental help, not debate. Over and out, “Little Knives.”

                • LittleKnives

                  And you are a pathetic troll that obviously can’t handle differing opinions and likes to pretend to be someone they’re not. I’m apart of a childfree group on facebook. Many of us feel the same way. Not everyone thinks kids and babies are beautiful little miracles from god. Not everyone sees the world through rose colored glasses.

          • Anet Alis

            That “people are going to live their lives however they want despite how it makes other people feel” is the sad part because you do not care about how your lifestyle might have an impact on the environment or the people around you.

            • LittleKnives

              The same thing could be said about breeders. You don’t care about the environment, or how overpopulation effects the quality of life for you, anyone around you, or even the lives of your own kids. By not breeding, the only life I effect is my own (in the sense of money, lineage, free time etc)… And for me, it will be nothing but positive effects. I can say with complete certainty that my life would be nothing but miserable if I had children. I am doing what is not only best for me and my life, but also for those around me… My carbon footprint will create less greenhouse gasses because with just one child, I would be putting thousands upon thousands of disposable diapers in the landfills that will never breakdown. I will not waste fossil fuels driving my spawn to pointless things like tap lessons, piano lessons, soccer practice or dentist appointments. I will not be creating another consumer for the government to exploit for tax dollars or labor or possibly even a target for opposing countries to fire at in the line of war. It is a win win situation.

      • Elaine Walkden

        I’ve worked for the last several years dealing with people in criminal court that that polite society wishes did not exist. I don’t think most people have the chops to do what I do. Let them call me non contributing and selfish all they want.

    • Elaine Walkden

      As to your last sentence, I have worked for the last 23 years of my life, with the majority of them being a “wallet” for the taxman. I’ve paid more taxes proportionally than most of my peers because I don’t have children and don’t have deductions other than my student loan (though the last two years I’ve finally gotten smarter, opening more IRAs and getting more deducted from my pay for my retirement plan). No one can sit here and be honest and state it’s selfish to pay taxes to provide resources for society, the majority of I don’t use and will never use.

      Additionally. How can you possibly know based on a couple of posts from internet strangers that they DON’T contribute to society? My husband and I both donate regularly to charities and we have both done volunteer work for environmental cleanup efforts.

      Your post isn’t any better than the so called evil and unfeeling ones. And why did you have to bring in a chestnut about abortion?

    • Anet Alis

      Yes. I just hope people are not doing abortion as a replacement of birth control

    • Anna

      We don’t owe it to our futures to have children. We are all going to be dead. Oh, and I agree with you that people who can’t stand children are jerks. That does not mean that people who choose to be child free are all jerks. Both those with children and without are jerks. I was a jerk when I had a kid. But I was a jerk trying to better myself because of my family history, health, lack of resources etc.. Having my son did not help. I struggle with being a jerk every day…the selfishness I was taught by family + others + society….I did not ask to be lacking in life! If you have what it takes I see no problem with having a bunch of kids. If you do not…it could destroy you and another innocent life. Its about self realization people.

  • brittany mathis

    This article is so ugh. How can we speak on both sides of the door? Have you ever realized that a lot of teachers day care workers and the like are childfree? We have feet on both sides. Whether we were forced to raise siblings/cousins because of family issues or because we work with children.

    We are glad for the wonderful freedom and peace and quiet. And you should be glad we aren’t parents. I know for myself I’d I’ve had enough with kids I’ll go off somewhere and ignore them completely crying and all. Including my own nieces who are both under 2 years old. But those parents who have kids and didn’t truly want them those are the ones you see murdering their kids to away from parenthood. When they should’ve been told it’s ok to not have them at all.

    Just because you and your wife have the “well my vagina is functioning so let’s pip out kids till we can’t anymore”mentality does not mean more people should. People like you are the reason I joined the voluntary human extinction movement. As if the world needed more people to drain resources.

    • Anna

      There is no shortage of resources in North America-not really. Still, I see your point…some of us have had care giving responsibilities our whole lives from childhood…by the time it is time to reproduce, we just want some peace and quiet. I doubt I would have come down with a life threatening illness (stress related) if I had remained child free. I really needed to take care of myself just when my little critter needed me most. I love him. I would not have chosen this if I knew what it would mean really.

  • Colleen Robinson

    self absorbed much? I am in no financial means to have a kid. I don’t want a kid. Its not that i do not like children its just that I do not want to have a kid of my own. What I do hate is children that constantly misbehave and parents do nothing to correct the behaviour. That is what I dislike. Its not the kid – its the behavior and lack of parental supervision. “They are just kids – kids yell and scream” Well when in a restaurant where others are dining – teach your little kid to be quiet and considerate of others or you as a parent go somewhere else as you and your kids clearly do not belong in a restaurant where others are dining if you think that way. Judge me for not having kids – I judge you back for having them and thinking you are all that and more just because you chose to procreate and I didn’t. My life my choice.

    • Anna

      That’s just stupid. Kids don’t work like that. Still, that is how I thought before I had kids—that you could just ‘make’ them behave. You don’t know any better, but please, do try to understand that we have the right to eat wherever we want and if you don’t like kids, eat at adult only restaurants.

  • reasearchgal

    Sounds like jealousy to me you bunch of breeders.

  • Guest

    Read the whole article, and what a load of crap! I’m childfree, I chose this life because it’s the life I want. This doesn’t make me selfish, wrong, stupid or crazy. If anything it makes me very smart, because I’m doing what’s best for me. If I had kids, I would end up with kids I never wanted, my kids would have a dad who never wanted them. Quite frankly, that’s a disaster. To have kids simply to please fools like you would be selfish. if you want kids, fine, go have them, just don’t go around telling everyone that being childfree is stupid. It’s not, far from it. Also people choosing the childfree life won’t affect the human population, for one it’s still on the increase. Some people have the desire to have kids, and some don’t. That is something you’ll have to accept. My life will never have kids in it, because I don’t want that life. I don’t want to be a dad, and so I won’t. Having kids, simply to please others is probably among the dumbest things you can do. You say it’s illogical for a childfree person like myself to understand what is expected with having kids. You’re wrong again, I know what’s expected, I have even watched my sis go through raising kids and struggling. I know what to expect, I also know deep down it’s not for me. My life will be best without kids, because that’s what I want. No responsibility, commitments or anything. That’s what I want. Not everyone was meant to have kids, some of us were born with the lack of interest.

  • Dr.Laura Ross

    I read your article, I have read the other articles…. I will do this in two parts, first I will outline what appears to be the general “movement” these days about social & civic issues, and second I will pose a question.

    1) As in the case of sexual preference those that have suffered the deepest wounds have summarized the social movement to a few key concepts or statement “if you don’t support gay marriage don’t get one”, “my sexual preference is none of your business”, “we are all people and should have access to the same rights” and even “if you aren’t LBGT you have no dog in this fight so keep it shut”. These same concepts for the most part can be applied to any current civil issue with in reason,
    2)
    a) So I guess my question to you, your wife and the other authors (from possibly both sides) is as follows…, if you don’t have children why must you make a movement?,

    b)if you do have children why are you so threatened by how those with out children choose to live?

    … and yes I chose the word threatened because if you weren’t you wouldn’t be so convicted in your defense.

    Personally I feel both sides are silly and “childish” you chose to literally have a dozen children, I could psychoanalyze you and your wife’s underlying reasoning behind that move all day, but why? How does it affect me? does it effect me? many could list a long and well thought out argument on how YES, YES INDEED YOUR CHOICE to have twelve children DOES IN FACT AFFECT them and possibly both in positive and negative ways. But how does the actions of the child free (not having children) affect your life? or the lives of other parents? could you make the same concise list? Or would it just be a list of why you have “hurt feelings”??????

  • RachaelMall

    I’m always curious about people who write long articles berating others for their lifestyle choices. Mind your own business. By the way, I’m childfree and there’s nothing you can do about it. Your berating me or mocking me makes you no better than any other bigot.

    • Larry_Sanger

      The post was in reply to another article that was berating others for their lifestyle choices. In any case, defending opinions about philosophical questions is not a personal attack on you. Trying to shut down opinions with which you disagree with is itself much more bigoted than finding your life choices unsupported by a general article.

      • RachaelMall

        Negativity is negativity, period. Negativity is ugly and unneeded. I’ll shut it down any way I can. By the way, thanks for the negative response…lol

        • Larry_Sanger

          Defending opinions about philosophical questions is not “negativity.” I don’t even know what “negativity” in this very loose sense means. Does it include disagreeing, period? In that case, attempting to shut anything down implies disagreement and hence negativity.

  • RachaelMall

    “How is it at all logically possible to insist that you would not enjoy that which you have never had?” Because I don’t like children. Having them is going to to magically make me like them. DUH!

    • Anet Alis

      You don’t want to like children?

      • RachaelMall

        No. I don’t want to like the color green, steak, or dogs, either.

      • Overtaxed

        Not particularly, no. Children are incredibly expensive and all consuming. It’s kind of like I don’t really want to fall in love with a beautiful but very materially oriented (gold digger) woman. It’s too expensive and too high a risk of failure. Or I don’t want to become a connoisseur of Ferrari’s; sure, it would be fun, right up until the point where you’re working 80 hour weeks to pay for a new set of brakes (braces?) for the “love” of your life.

  • sssp

    I’m shocked that the author would take the time to write about this issue with such illogical and poorly reasoned points. Just to point out a few:

    1) Author says: How is it at all logically possible to insist that you would not enjoy that which you have never had?
    I say: Easily! The same way I know I am heterosexual and not homosexual even though I never actually had relations with the same sex. The same way I know I don’t won’t enjoy sticking needles into my eyes even though I’ve never done it. The same way I know I don’t want to be an accountant or a historian even though I never did it (I’m an engineer). I just KNOW. What part of “I don’t like children?” is so difficult to understand? I. DON’T. LIKE. THEM. I hate them, in fact. It’s just the truth. So why insist this will somehow magically change for me if I “try it”? Also, there are plenty of parents that hate parenthood and wish they had never done it. It is not as rare as you make is seem.
    2)

  • Ďakujem

    This was really terribly thought out and every point he made used flawed logic, but I suspect the author knows this by now. Better luck next time, Chris!

  • Laces

    I think this article is full of hurtful and misinformed comments. Do you truly believe there is only one way to live? One way to be happy and fulfilled? We are childfree and we choose to share our time and resources outside the bubble of our own little family of two. It’s because we are childfree that we are able to do so with community involvement, charitable event planning, etc. We’re far from selfish or self-absorbed. We don’t put worldly goods ahead of people and we’re committed to caring for the family members in our lives who require our time and energy. We also value our interests, our passions, our faith and our marriage – we love our lives together as a couple. What’s wrong with that? Why is our lifestyle choice fair game for you to criticize and demean? Would it be fair of me to challenge you as to why you didn’t choose adoption and share your love and home with kids in need, instead of what is arguably “the easier way” to create a large family?

    See how it feels?

  • Tracy Aranda

    The term childfree is used to create a distinction between a person who is unable to have children, and one who chooses not to have children. Plenty of childfree people like children just fine, they simply don’t want them as a permanent fixture in their life. I’ve been teaching 1st grade through 3rd for the past 18 years. I enjoy my kiddos! Sometimes spending time with them is more enjoyable than spending time with adults. I admire good parents. It is a hard job! I’m not interested in being one. I think we would be in a much better place if others out there would do some soul searching before having children. Maybe then we wouldn’t read some of these horrific news. Parenting isn’t for everyone, and we should respect both sides.

  • Larry_Sanger

    Just as they themselves say, some people shouldn’t have children. If they lack the maturity, they shouldn’t. If they are self-absorbed and can’t imagine caring more about another person than about themselves, they absolutely should not have children.

    I think the child-free movement (i.e., not the decision of some women not to have children, but the growing chorus of voices passionately defending that decision) is an unwitting reflection of the fact that so many young people today are indeed self-absorbed and selfish. It’s all about them. Those sorts of people shouldn’t have children because they will be very poor parents. Perhaps in some cases, having children will improve them. But in most cases I’d fear it wouldn’t, and they’ll become the sort of people who say “I hate being a mom” and “if I get a divorce, I won’t want custody.” There’s a subtle thing here. Everybody knows being a parent (especially an active, involved mother) is very difficult and demanding, and I’m sure few mothers like those demands. But declaring that you hate being a mother is declaring that you hate your role, and if you hate your role, it’s hard for that not to rub off on your attitude toward your children.

    Ultimately, sadly, this is the consequence of the sort of modern, post-industrial society we live in. Even if we see value in reproducing and in having children, our children might very well become so self-absorbed that they don’t see any value in reproducing. Thus western civilization will go down the tubes (look at fertility rates in all Western countries, and similarly advanced countries like Japan), it appears. What will the world look like in another couple generations? It’s very hard to say.

    • marylain

      > But declaring that you hate being a mother is declaring that you hate your role

      My… ROLE?!!!!
      AHAHAHAHHA! XD
      I’m a woman, not a vessel!
      Oh my god… I cannot believe I’m reading such things in 2014…

      • Larry_Sanger

        You misunderstood, probably out of a desire to find something to be outraged by. I wasn’t saying that all women have the role of being mothers. I was saying that if a woman has previously chosen to become a mother, then that is in fact her role. If you choose to become a mother (or father) then you then have serious obligations to your children. I think one obligation is to regard it as a huge problem if you hate being a mother, and doing whatever you can to change that situation. Your hatred of being a mother will have various awful effects on your children.

        • Anna

          Thank you for saying that the writer you mention probably needs something to be outraged about. I also agree that many are a product of this post-industrial age and inherently selfish (which in many ways is normal in our society), but I don’t agree that all are trying to gain more and more outwardly and financially. Some, like myself, do not have the family support, health or skills. Really I think the OP on point for people who have the resources. I had my child and did not have the resources..it made me very sick and I almost died trying to give my son things I thought he should have. I will probably die sooner because of it. Sometimes selfishness is needed to fulfil the necessities in oneself that require months and years-maybe even a lifetime. Our society is just not build for big families.

  • Nicola Warner

    You have 16 children… (WTF???) I’m never going to take anything you say seriously!!! You’re talking to yourself mate!!

  • Laces

    Larry_Sanger you must not have read my post or maybe you just genuinely haven’t met many people who aren’t parents/planning to be parents. What makes you think that the decision not to have kids is always about self-absorption and selfishness? Ask parents why they chose to have children and I guarantee most replies will start with “I wanted…” People have babies not to keep the species going; they have them to fill a void in their lives, make themselves happy, to feel fulfilled, carry on their genetics, etc. What is so altruistic about that? Face it, we *all* make decisions about our lives that benefit ourselves in some fashion, whether it’s the decision to raise kids or the decision not to. For most people who choose parenthood it’s to bring themselves happiness. The childfree among us find happiness without children. Parent or non-parent, we should *all* be giving of ourselves to help those around us, contribute to charity, reach out to the disadvantaged and lonely, etc. Who’s got more time and resources to reach out beyond our own families, parents or the childfree??

    • Larry_Sanger

      “What makes you think that the decision not to have kids is always about self-absorption and selfishness?” I don’t think you read what I wrote very carefully, because I didn’t say the decision not to have kids is due to self-absorption and selfishness. I was commenting on the reasons cited by many of the “childfree” people in the discussion of this very blog, and other places online. They themselves say that they don’t want children because of the sacrifice they’ll have to make in terms of their personal time and happiness. Yes. It’s called being a parent. If you can’t appreciate why anybody might want to make such a sacrifice, you’re not, or not yet, the sort of person who should have children. I have two children. I do not recognize my motivations in “they have them to fill a void in their lives, make themselves happy, to feel fulfilled, carry on their genetics.” I think you should make more of an effort to understand why parents really do have children, because it sounds like you don’t get it. Perhaps indeed at first the motives might be selfish, in some sense. I commented about that very question here: http://www.quora.com/Is-it-more-selfish-to-have-children-or-to-remain-childless/answer/Larry-Sanger-2 But ultimately, I’m not sure how to describe the situation where you make a decision to embrace the happiness of another person as your own, even at the expense of your own happiness. That’s what (good) parents do. Is that selfish or not? I’m not sure the question even applies.

  • Lady Cyn Aptic

    I find this article disgusting. *vomit* *holyfuck other people want something different than you holyfuck* #childfreeandproud #idontlikeorwantchildren #abortionrocks #idiocracyapproaches #stopbreeding I’m only leaving this comment as an example of how this entire article sounded, except on the flip side… toodles.

    • Anet Alis

      Abortion is horrible. Makes me want to puke on peoples faces for making a baby then killing it. If you want sex, then fine. But keep in mind that sex is a way of reproduction, and it is its intention. So please use protection and prevention if you really don’t want children because they’re the ones suffering from the pleasures of the adults

      • Ganae Vigil

        What about in instances of rape? And there is no condom or birth control that prevents pregnancy 100%. But bringing a child that isn’t wanted in this already overpopulated world, that will have a chance at being placed in the foster care system, (unprepared/unfit parents) which produces criminals and mentally ill people is a great alternative lol

  • Larry_Sanger

    I’m so glad that so many unpleasant people have chosen not to breed. It’s sad that they’re unpleasant and don’t want to have children, but it’s a good thing that they’re not breeding.

    • Ganae Vigil

      The only problem is it’s the screw ups, uneducated and the religious ignorant that are breeding, in fact child-free people are proven to be smarter, healthier and happier…you should check out the movie Idiocracy

      • Larry_Sanger

        Well, that’s interesting. I have two children myself. I’m not a screw-up (e.g., I am running a funded startup), I have a Ph.D., and I’m agnostic.

  • Meri Da

    you guys must be atheist or else you would know that jesus himself is childfree & also warns AGAINST children in the last days. twice…once in matt & once in luke. furthermore paul is childfree as well & before you bring up that misused verse in timothy, dont bother. modern day bibles have screwed it up & put it to mean all women…but in a kjv it says SHE…not women…& the SHE is in reference to eve…& eve alone. how do we know? says so in the verse before. it is not meant for all women. sorry. armegeddon is no place for a stupid bloody child to begin with. you think we’re not in teh armegeddon wars? think again…look at what ISIS does to christian & jewish children…especially the females. jesus warns about this twice! yet morons keep breeding…giving more targets for ISIS & other factions that are rising up all around us…..breeding is idiotic in this day & age…& the CF folk have the bible to back them up….more than once…more than twice even!

    during times like this it is NOT wise to have kids. wait until after or even the new life…..

  • Elaine Walkden

    See the thing is, most people who don’t want children don’t feel they’re in some sort of “movement”. There are some fringe groups like VHEMT that others view extreme. Childfree online groups started primarily I bet for people like me – we just want to find acceptance for our choices to not only not have children but not want them. I’ve always been an honest person, and since I’ve ALWAYS known I didn’t want children, when the topic was brought up I’d honestly say I didn’t want them.

    First it was “You’ll change your mind when you’re older!”

    When I was older, it was the BINGOs such as “You’re selfish!” and “But what about your parents?” and “What if your parents had felt that way!” and “You’ll never have a husband!”

    When I got married at age 31 to a childfree man, it was some people thinking I was weird and trying to psychoanalyze us for our choices.

    Now that I am age 40, immediately upon some peers starting a children story it’s, “You don’t want to hear about this because I know you hate kids!” even though I’ve never uttered such words.

    Anyone who truly thinks there’s going to be some widespread, worldwide movement and so many people are going to choose not to have children we’re going to have some population decline is extremely foolish. Everywhere I go I see kids, most people I’ve known throughout my life went on to have kids. If we have a massive population decline, it’s going to be on account of we are violent as a species and we’re going to kill each other off, some pandemic is going to kill us off or there will be a huge event in Mother Nature, or the population will get so numerous we’ll starve.

    • Bea

      I’m married to a childfree man. I love the looks I get when parents tell me that I will change my mind, because I just smile and mention my husband’s vasectomy. LOLOL That shuts them up very quickly. My favorite bingo of all: “Is your husband okay with that?” Uh, why would I marry a man who wanted children if I did not want any? #completelystupidquestion

      When I post on Facebook about the advantages of being childfree, I get many defensive responses from parents. “I WOULDN’T TRADE IT FOR THE WORLD!!” I never asked them if they would trade being a parent for childfreedom. However, their responses show that they are jealous of my freedom and probably miss the days before they had kids. Oh well. If they can post countless pictures of their kids, I can post about the joys of not having them.

  • Jijinska

    Hi Chris: I want to address this one question you ask:
    “How is it at all logically possible to insist that you would not enjoy that
    which you have never had?”

    While you make a good point that it’s impossible for a childfree person to know that
    they would hate parenthood, there are abundant examples in society of parents
    who apparently decided that parenthood isn’t what they expected. Over the years, I’ve met new acquaintances who
    don’t mention until I’ve gotten to know them well that they have underage children
    that they don’t support, and from whom they are estranged. These parents tried
    parenthood and decided it wasn’t for them. More common than this total
    abandonment, however, are the parents who just barely stay in their children’s
    lives. Their wages are garnished by the courts for support because they didn’t
    pay voluntarily, and they might call the children once or twice a year on the
    telephone. They’ve all met their offspring, and some even lived with them for years—but that wasn’t enough for them to enjoy parenthood enough to actually participate in it.

    Add in the multitude of cases of abuse and neglect from custodial
    parents, and we’re getting a picture of parents who aren’t enjoying the job.

    And, before someone replies that manipulative custodial parents keep
    noncustodial parents away, I suggest reading a book from the 1990s titled Women
    and Their Fathers which focused on a study of that claim. Fewer than one
    percent of estranged fathers stayed away solely or primarily due to maternal
    interference.

  • SisterBenedict

    From RadarOnline:

    Cynthia Jeub is refusing to remain silent.

    The 22-year-old college student and writer, who rose to fame as one of 16 children in a strict Christian family on TLC reality show Kids By The Dozen in 2007, has accused her parents, Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar’s close pals Chris and Wendy, of emotionally and physically tormenting her and her siblings.

    “I was physically abused, and I don’t just mean that I’m opposed to spanking,” the Colorado native reveals in in an October 6 blog post on her website, CynthiaJeub.com. “I am not labeling everything in the following stories as abuse… But the time my mom grabbed my ear as a small child and threw me on the hard wood floor so my head rang, or the time my dad hit my sister over forty times with a belt not as punishment, but because she had a rebellious spirit, or when my brother wasn’t allowed to attend his regular extracurricular activities for a couple of weeks so nobody would see the bruises my mom left on his face…I think it’s fair to call those things abusive.”

    Cynthia, the third eldest child in the huge brood, claims she couldn’t come forward until now because she wasn’t “safe,” or free from her parents’ control.

    “I had to get a new bank account, so my dad could stop financially abusing me with easy transaction-making access. I had to get my own car, so my mom could stop using rides to my much-needed mental health therapy as reason to tell me I was ungrateful if I stepped out of line. I had to buy my website’s domain name from my dad so he couldn’t delete my blog for prying the mask off my family’s face,” she explains, adding that she has cut all ties with her parents and siblings.

    The University of Colorado student explains that for years, she didn’t understand she was a victim.

    “I didn’t know I was abused. For every violent incident or when my parents lost their tempers, I had three options,” she says. “First, I could blame myself and assume I deserved it…Second, I could see this instance as isolated and minimal, totally out of character, and thus erase my logical ability to recognize patterns. Third, if the first two options didn’t work, my parents apologized profusely and demanded forgiveness, which meant I could never bring it up again.”

    Though young and alone, Cynthia insists she’s ready for the inevitable backlash, presumably from her outspoken homeschooling advocate and debate coach father.

    “I’m prepared for being accused of slander and I can back up my claims,” she bravely states. “I’m moving forward in my career, and I’m in mental health therapy. I am living in a safe place.”

    But it looks like Chris, who claims love is the most important virtue jeubfamily.com is choosing to keep quiet about the allegations. While he tweeted a link called “Episode 7: The Jeub Children Respond to Cynthia” from his Training Minds website, the podcast has been deleted.

    Cynthia has received support from sister Lydia, 20, who retweeted comments from fans bashing their father.

    “When multiple children leave home with the same horrifying tale, it’s not mental illness. @LydiaJeub @cynthiajeub @ChrisJeub #monster,” she posted.

    She also tweeted a YouTube video allegedly capturing her father’s initial response to the claims, which he quickly took down from his site.

    “What she explained is illegal behavior…There is no excuse for what she is explaining on her blog. This is not true….Beatings do not take place in our home,” a man claiming to be Chris says. “We love Cynthia, and there is pain in those accusations. I don’t know what that pain is. Before her blog post, we had been wrestling with her for several months and one of the pleads with her we had was please come with us to counseling….But it’s been an appeal for her to get help for what I believe is mental illness.”

    Chris recently wrote about his longstanding friendship with fellow TLC reality family the Duggars in June.

    “Wendy and I have known the Duggars for about a decade, have shared the TLC spotlight with them, and couldn’t be more thrilled for the upcoming marriage of their daughter Jill on Saturday,” Chris said, adding that he and his wife were looking forward to attending the nuptials. “Today we’re loading up the van and trekking to Arkansas for a hot summer wedding.”

  • spermyniggerfetish

    Fuck this lol
    Nobody cares about your stretched out cave vagina. Go wash it. It probably smells like the fish store.

  • Evelien

    Wendy nd u just fucking disgust me!
    How can u live with yourselfs omg!!!
    Just so nasty to have 16 brats…
    Call yourself selfish, u wanna have so much brats for your own pleasure!
    I think more people look down on u guys than on childfree people!
    #sohappychildfree!
    #foreverenjoymylifeinsteadofchsngingdiapers!
    Lol!!!

  • Erik Griffiths

    Thank you for draining more than your share of resources with your horde of children.

  • ReBecks

    http://childfreedom.blogspot.com/2009/03/top-100-reasons-not-to-have-kids-and.html

    This is a great list that I saw not so long ago that I like to share and re-post whenever I have the opportunity (…and this sham of an “article” fits the bill). While I am quite sure there could be even more added, a hundred reasons is a decent amount to prove how being child free is a more evolved, more modern, more thoughtful and compassionate, and WAY LESS polluting way of living, or thriving in all honesty. Now I am quite sure ol’ Larry will have some response as it seems he can’t go without commenting on damn near every single post someone makes (oddly, while the writer of this ridiculous blog post remains silent). But for all of you other people, child free or child haver, here you go. I hope you enjoy it as much as I have.

    • Elaine Walkden

      Oh, he replied some in the beginning, continuously beeping on in the writing equivalent of a parrot, “But what about my point number three?” Ruminating about “What if everyone decided to not have kids?” is just as ridiculous as imagining what if Borg came to this planet to assimilate us into the Collective.

  • Sam Storm

    Thank God I’m childfree, and thank God I always will be.

  • recoveryjournalistk

    What about the parents who admit to the societal taboo that they regret having children? They exist, and surely it’s better to regret not having children than to become one of them who regret having them- that way an unwanted child won’t suffer from knowing his or mother thinks they’re a mistake. Poor children 🙁

  • Jackothy

    I’m sorry, but 16 children is just plain self-indulgent. Have you considered fostering or adopting? You ask what we would do if we all decided to stop having children… Well, I would ask you, what would we do if we all had 16 children? Environmental arguments aren’t flaky, they’re justified when, by current estimates, it would take 4 Earths to sustain the world population if we all lived as the Americans do. If we all lived as you do, it would probably take 40 Earths to keep us going.

  • CFderp

    well yea you shouldn’t attack mothers, they are obviously happy with their child, why bash their happiness. But why say it is wrong to choose to not want children (ever). What makes one person happy doesn’t make the other person happy. I am childfree, and there is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with being a mother either. It’s personal. No need for wars..

  • Angel

    “It’s like insisting to hate a food that you have never tried.”

    So I guess that it’s fair to say that having a child is like choosing to eat one food only for the rest of your life, without even knowing if you like it?

    See how stupid this comparison looks now, you crucifix shagging weirdo?

    • Anet Alis

      I was also thinking about when you tried a food and didn’t like it, you can get rid of that food. But if you tried having a child and didn’t like it, what will happen to that poor child?

  • Elaine Soucy

    Some people aren’t fit for parenthood, and those smart enough to realise that are lightyears ahead of those who choose to have kids, without having the skills, education, experiece etc to be good parents. I am a proud child-free woman, but that doesnt change the fact that I appreciate children, I don’t hate them like alot of people who chose not to reproduce. Lets not generalise and put all of us child-free people in the same category . And unlike what some jugemental people might think, there is absolutely nothing wrong with not wanting children.

  • LittleKnives

    Chris, you have yet to answer a point I brought up… what about women who don’t like kids? Do you think I should still have them, even though I don’t even like to be in the same room as children? Also, I want to point out that I think it’s hilarious that you attached a photo of your kids saying “How’s that childfree ideology working out for ya?”… I look at all those mouth you have to feed, and imagine all the sleepless nights and shit filled diapers and I answer you with, “My childfree life is fucking awesome”.

    • Stephanie_Bell

      Right on! I’m one of those women who actually does not like children at all. But remember, they tell us that its different when its our own. LOL

  • Angel Mois

    There are over 7 billion people in this world and that number is growing.
    There are food shortages world wide and it’s getting worse.
    Last year, several states declared a state of emergency due to water shortages.
    There is an island of plastic trash the size of a small state in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.
    There is radiation emanating from Japan heading this way.
    Violence is increasing.
    Jobs are decreasing.
    Automation will soon replace even fast food jobs.
    Wages are decreasing.
    Housing is getting harder to come by.
    Deforestation is happening all around to help with housing needs and putting several species at risk.

    And you want to bring more kids into this world for your own needs?

    Who is the truly selfish one?

    If you and your wife were as enlightened and selfless as you say you are you would have chosen to adopt children already here instead of adding to the problem.

    Hypocrite much?

  • TheTimeVortex

    why not have chosen to ADOPT 16 children instead of MAKING 16 MORE.

  • Angel

    http://www.celebitchy.com/391963/young_adult_star_of_tlcs_kids_by_the_dozen_accuses_parents_of_physical_abuse/ Yeah, you really love those kids, don’t ya? Want to tell me you’re still better than people without kids now? At least we don’t HURT children. Why have them if you’re going to abuse them?

  • hdonovan

    So having kids makes people less selfish and self-centered than those who don’t reproduce? 1. Nice jab at those childless people whom you claimed to respect. 2. Better to be selfish than a child abuser. Nothing like having your own child tell the world what shits you and your wife are. http://www.celebitchy.com/391963/young_adult_star_of_tlcs_kids_by_the_dozen_accuses_parents_of_physical_abuse/ Guess all that “sacrifice” and “affection” and “heart of love” got too tiresome so you two; or was it all B.S. from the start?

  • Forbidden Fruit

    The American birth rate is at an all time low! Woohoo! Mindless breeding is going the way of fundamentalist religion and shoulder pads. When thinking people evolve and realize there’s a better way of living, buh-bye breeder-centric society. That time is upon us.

    You can “look down” on me all you want. Guess what? The feeling’s mutual. There’s nothing more selfish than bringing another DNA replicant into this overpopulated world when there are already millions of existing children who need a home. Don’t talk about selflessness until you’re ready to put your money where your big mouth is. Adopt, foster, mentor, teach, or STFU.

    Your widdle sneauxflakes are not special. There is nothing miraculous about doing something a cockroach can do. As the great Bill Hicks once said, “I’ve wiped entire civilizations off my chest with a gray gym sock.”

  • Alan Smith

    I can’t help thinking the debate between fundamentalist religious people and the childfree is like some boxing match with 2million rounds that will never finish. The two sides are simply so far apart in their mindsets that neither side will ever convince the other.

    On the one hand you have the childfree. Now, either because they dislike children (and frankly, who can blame them? What rational person wants a squealing, snot-nosed incontinent little unformed adult waddling around) or for other reasons – maybe they don’t wish to pass on hereditary disease, feel strongly about the fact that the world is so overpopulated, or some other reason. Is it not obvious that someone who does not want to produce children will NEVER be swayed by any argument about how much joy they supposedly bring, how it’s their “duty” or how some supernatural being whose existence has never been proven commands them to be fruitful and multiply?

    On the other, you have the religious. Now, such people, by definition, define their lives by faith. Get that? Faith. This means they do not regard logic, statistics, reasoning or secular law as the main determinants in defining their actions. A somewhat indecipherable book written in some archaic language tells them what to do and they do it. Who knows, they may even be right (though, frankly, I personally doubt it.) But surely it’s a total waste of breath to try to argue against their lifestyle choice. If they truly think God wants them to do a thing, how likely is it they will go against this instruction because of something someone says to them?

    Surely the best way to resolve it would be to simply accept the choice of the other camp.

    For the childfree, this would mean:

    (a) Not mocking a faith-based decision to produce children (and there’s plenty of this on youtube) (b) Maybe more moderate language. Comparing children to faeces, or mothers to bovines is probably not the most respectful of language with which to describe people (Again, plenty of examples around. Google “Bratfree” for some good examples.).
    (c) Accept that sometimes, a screaming child having a meltdown in a public place is due to their mother’s genuine inability to control the child, rather than laziness. Some parents are just not capable of restraining their children due to lack of assertiveness, experience or intelligence.

    For parents, this would mean:

    (a) Refraining from criticising the childfree life. This includes such cliches as “You’re selfish” “You were one yourself once” or “You’ll change your mind.” All of these can be easily exploded.
    (b) Making at least some attempt to keep your children under control, or if this is impossible, remove them from the enclosed space (restaurant, bus, art gallery) where it is happening. You have no right to impose your lifestyle choice on others.
    (c) Cease the constant complaining about how hard parenthood is. You chose it!

    And for governments, this would mean a more equitable, environment-friendly policy regarding taxation and benefits. Paying benefits to couples for producing massive tribes of children is hardly a logical strategy when the world’s population is over 7billion. I realise that governments have to buy votes to a certain extent, but being in power won’t do you much good if the earth can no longer sustain life. Stopping all benefits, subsidies, handouts, etc after the second child would do much to prevent out spiralling, out of control world population growth. And after all, if you believe God wants you to have huge armies of children, surely you believe He will provide for their upbringing. Why would you want benefits paid for by the evil taxes of the non-religious?

    • lanmanna

      How about people like me who are Christian AND doesn’t want kids? Adopt, yes, but children that I produced? No thanks.

    • Ganae Vigil

      You hit the nail on the head! 🙂

    • Selene R

      Brilliant. 5 stars.

  • Anet Alis

    I just hope these child free people are not doing abortion every single time a baby is made

    • LittleKnives

      I have had one abortion because my birth control method failed. I got pregnant with my husband. I do not regret my abortion and im not ashamed of it. I would do it again if I had to, and every time I get pregnant. Luckily I have a uteran birth control implant so the probability is very low. I am also looking into sterilization.

    • Ganae Vigil

      I have no children and never had an abortion. I do know someone who has three kids, is a meth addict and has had countless abortions…yet these are the people breeding lol It’s called being responsible and most child-free people are, and desperately want to avoid being a parent because we are smart enough to realize it would be hell on earth.

    • Selene R

      Why would their choice affect you in any way? Why is it any of your business?

    • Stephanie_Bell

      I have aborted each birth control failure, and why not? On many occasions throughout the decades I begged to be sterilized, only to be turned away. Sure I’m pissed off that I had to abort, but I sure as hell wasn’t going to breed.

    • N. Chaplin

      People choosing to seek abortion for whatever reason they choose to do so is none of your business. Besides the medical fact that countless fetuses spontaneously abort for any number of reasons on a daily basis, medical abortion is a safe, legal procedure that has been determined by the SCOTUS to be the legal right of every person in this country who can become pregnant and doesn’t wish to be. I could say so much more, but given that this legal decision has been on the books for half a century, I shouldn’t have to. We live in a country where others’ religious convictions, let alone personal biases, needn’t stand in the way of us exercising our legal rights in a responsible manner. It’s deeply disturbing and disappointing to me just how often that is happening.

    • B.B.

      They are child free. They know how to Use birth control, duh. They won’t turn out to be abusers like Chris Jeub, who are close with the Duggars (which means horribly weird shit goes on behind closed doors).

  • Eliska Ringler

    I really dislike the original Time article and applaud all of the stay at home (or working) moms. At the same time I really HATE this article on so many levels and let me break it down for the author.

    to her 1st point – I actually do like children and I still don’t want any. Even though I haven’t had any kids yet, I know I’d prefer not having any. I also never had a waterbed either and I know I wouldn’t like it.

    2nd point – My life will end “with depressing consequence”? Wow, can you even seem me over here from your high horse? Are you saying that the only purpose of life is procreation?

    To your 3rd point- there are enough people that will have the kids I don’t. The future of humanity is ok. The population of this planet is still rising and not declining. We’re all good.
    I completely understand that reading that BS article about how people with kids are gross must have pissed you off. However, that does not give you a free pass to attack people that chose not to have children.

    • spermyniggerfetish

      Lmaoooooooo if having sex, getting drunk and getting up out of bed whenever the fuck I want to is the “depressing consequence” then the retard who wrote this can shove it up her cave like vagina because it’s pretty fucking sweet.

  • CaDan

    Working at a hospital I saw lots and lots of elderly couples with children who stuffed them in a retirement home only to visit them once in a blue moon. I had one women call once a month to see if her mother had died yet – once I told her that the mother was still alive she hung up. No if you ask me that’s even worse then The lonely lot you envisioned for all us childfree people.
    I think the real reason for this article is because your threatened by an alternative lifestyle that you may secretly covet, but your so stuck in your own spiders web that these ideas scare you to much to even consider and so you attack them. Did you ever think being alone isn’t so bad? Think of it as a minimalist if approach to family unlike your gaudy baroque lifestyle.
    And one last thing: I don’t recycle, I drive a gas guzzler and I take long showers because I can and you and your 16 or more children can worry about it because I don’t have too! Haha

  • spermyniggerfetish

    Lmaoooooooo if having sex, getting drunk and getting up out of bed whenever the fuck I want to is the “depressing consequence” then the retard who wrote this can shove it up her cave like vagina because it’s a pretty fucking sweet consequence.

  • IlonaAutumn

    1. Is it then fair to say that if I ‘try’ having children and dislike it, I could send them away? Contrary to popular belief, I know people who DO regret having their children, even wanted children, even grown children who are no longer still draining their resources and who are extremely close to their parents. I know a father and adult daughter combo who get on very well, and the man says he loves his children, but if he had it to do over again, he would have remained childfree.

    2. I do not owe my parents grandchildren. They chose to have children, and whilst I love them and be the best I can to them, I don’t owe them more life. There is also no guarantee that having kids means they will take care of you when you get old. But I can only hope that if I get decrepit to the point where I can’t wipe my own arse end of life rights have come further, because family or not the ride is over. I don’t want to be my grandmother- wasting away of dementia for a decade, not even knowing myself.

    3. If humanity implodes, why would we care? Many cultures have self destructed before us, and I daresay unless there is another Great Dying, many will after. And if there is a mass extinction including humanity, there won’t be any humans around to care anyway.

  • Ganae Vigil

    This article is hilarious and biased lol Its proven that there are too many people draining on our resources, not to mention Child-free people have higher IQs, happier lives, marriages, careers and age and eat better. Living my life for someone else is not my idea of happiness and anyone who thinks the financial, emotional, physical and mental hassles and heartache of raising children is heaven on earth is delusional or lying to themselves to make them feel better because it’s too late to change their decision.

  • Selene R

    If you’re having so much fun with your spouse and your brood, why do you have to mock the surfer guy for indulging in what he finds pleasurable? Is having children any sort of accomplishment? Most mammals are born with the gametes and equipment that it takes to propagate their species. On the other hand, studying hard and attaining knowledge that can better the world is something of true value. When on of your offspring falls ill, do you do see an expert in breeding more humans, or do you go to a physician?

  • Megan

    Wow, Chris thanks so much for this article. This eloquent, well researched and logical article has changed my mind about being childfree. I thought that I was being intelligent when I made the informed introspective decision that mothering is not for me but, hey, I haven’t tried it right? And if I try that and don’t like it, it’s okay. I can totally just return the kids at one of those baby return stores! My favorites are The Orphanage, Foster Care, and The Bottom of the River.

    Oh and I really appreciate that reminder about getting old. I had totally forgot that happens to humans! My bad. Now that I understand how life works, I’m going to have a slew of children. That’s the reason to have them right? For “selfless” reasons like expecting them to take care of you when you’re old. Ask any elderly person you meet in a nursing home…I’m sure they’ll all tell you how every single one of their children dropped their own responsibilities to cater to the every need of their aging parent.

    And Chris, don’t you listen to these commenters claiming overpopulation is a thing. Claiming the Earth’s space and its resources are finite is just silly. Don’t they know about that magical button that triples the size of the earth when the population increases to the point that everywhere is a city and there is no room to grow food to feed the numerous people?

    No, the real problem is old people. It’s such a shame that advancing medicine doesn’t allow the elderly to be more independent nowadays, right? Also, what a bummer it’ll be to the economy when all those medical care needs create plenty of jobs! Yikes!

    Thanks again for this super persuasive article. Forget that plan I had of spending all that extra time I’d save by not focusing on my own procreation by helping the world as a whole. Like working to improve conditions of the poor in lands of this supposed “overpopulation.” Or using the money I’d save to give to charity. Or cultivating loving relationships with people who already exist.
    Nope, I’m gonna go find any guy off the street who views me not as an individual with thoughts and opinions, but simply as a uterus capable of reproducing his genes needlessly over and over again to feed his own pride. Then I’ll spend the rest of my days slaving over him and his offspring with my wrecked body while he sits around writing pointless blogs on the internet.

    Sounds awesome! Thanks for saving me from a life void of blessing because God only cares about parents! Really dodged a bullet!

    • Stephanie

      Absolutely brilliant!

    • Rachel

      You rock, Megan!

      I have a plan for when I get older (I’m currently hitting middle-age). Do parents really think we CFs don’t know how to take care of ourselves? I eat well, get plenty of exercise and sleep, and am constantly reading/learning new things. All so that I can have a healthy, happy old age. And with the money I don’t spend on children, I can afford to save well for my retirement.

    • Larry Lurex

      No one is taking care of these creepers when they get old. Every adult child they have has left and never looked back. Keep deleting the truth Mr. Jeub! Your days are numbered and soon you and your wife will be exposed for the monsters you are, just like your pals the Duggars.

      https://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2014/10/04/melting-memory-masks-cynthia-jeubs-story/

  • Jenn

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-mysteries-love/201502/is-it-irrational-decide-have-children?fb_action_ids=10155327611275096&fb_action_types=og.shares&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B777900682288783%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22og.shares%22%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D

    Just something to ponder, the Devil’s advocate of sorts. Whether a person or couple does or does not have a child or children… I personally do not care. I do not attack others for deciding to or not to have children. I do not want to take away from those who have children. I do not seek to restrict others either. Being childless/childfree, though, isn’t always a choice where as having a child(ren) is totally a choice. Why should childless/childfree individuals have to supplement, subsidize, support, and accommodate someone’s choice?

  • VisionAri

    Why do people with children assume that childfree people have never had more than passing encounters with children? Some of us decided we didn’t want children of our own because we’ve spent countless hours caring for/teaching/tutoring/mentoring other people’s children.

    Secondly, as the saying goes, I’d rather regret not having children than having them. I know people who were raised by parents who never really wanted them and, well… let’s just say that the outcome isn’t always the shiny, happy fantasy you’re carrying around in your head.

  • Singing Bear

    Judge and you will be judged. Plain and simple. “Looking down” on anyone is not about God and Jesus Christ. Period.

  • N. Chaplin

    I honestly find both of these ideological extremes incredibly judgmental and problematic. For numerous personal reasons, I’ve chosen neither to marry, nor to have children. Naturally, that choice poses both advantages and disadvantages. That said, in my heart of hearts, I know it is the right choice for my life and well being. I respect people who choose to bring children into this world and devote their lives to fostering new life. I also respect those who, like myself, have chosen any number of other equally valid and productive paths in life. The only people I look down upon are those who look down upon others. Not to mention, for every 8 people who choose not to have children, there are two people such as you and your wife who have, in a sense, done our work for us. If you are to congratulate yourself, let it be for that. And I’ll thank you, but not without a measure of sarcasm.

  • KJT

    Please read what you find at this link. Your way of thinking may make you feel righteous, but you’re not giving a moment’s thought to the children you’re encouraging. Their real lives, real well-being, real emotional health and physical health, real happiness. http://sylviadlucas.com/2013/08/21/kathleen-parker-reply/

  • Kyle ‘Ky’ Hanna

    I’m very grateful that my child-free ideology means my kids won’t have to endure yours.

  • Deej Barens

    the likelihood of everyone in the world deciding not to have children is slim to none, for there will always be breeders like you who treat their wife as a baby factory.

    • mandi

      And don’t forget the #1 reason people have kids: “oops.”

    • glassgoblin

      Yep, I feel sorry for her since it is obvious that he doesn’t actually love her for herself and only for what she does for him. She probably isn’t even human in his eyes.

  • Stephanie

    The arrogance of this man shouldn’t surprise me but it does. The reason why many people feel the need to scream at the top of their lungs I DON’T WANT CHILDREN is because of people like this. If everyone would just respect the child free by choice, then we wouldn’t have to defend our decision time after time. I don’t want kids and I’m sick of people trying to make me feel bad about it. Period.

  • stuntcat

    I’m not even childfree for me, I’m childfree for my child. I would kill myself very horribly before giving my own bay the rest of this century. I’ve been harassed for years, even told by my in-laws I should DIE, at the same time I watch the mass-extinction happening. I’m so proud I never gave this to my own baby girl.

  • mandi

    I am already the sole breadwinner, housekeeper, bookkeeper, and caregiver to my husband. I simply cannot have a child. It would be one more person for me to take care of, on top of 50 hour work weeks, keeping the house, and caring for my ill husband. Already there is not enough for me to go around, and now people insist that I am being selfish or bad for society for not wanting to add on any more. I’m already at my wit’s end, and now people insist that I add the responsibility of a child on top of it all.

    • Missbeanz

      Screw anyone trying to tell you how to live your life…including this guy.

  • Rachel

    I don’t hate children and in fact like spending time with well-behaved kids. I just have never been interested in having my own offspring, for a number of reasons. What I do hate are smug, self-righteous parents who believe they are entitled to have society bow to them and who think they’ve won the Nobel Prize for Medicine because they reproduced. And I’m sorry but — 16 kids! Wow. Does your wife even have a life of her own? Baby factory much?

  • WreckTom

    LOL, no thanks.

    Have fun raising your kids though, really.

  • anonloginnew

    This makes zero sense. The science channel listed overpopulation as possibly the number one greatest threat to the planet. Talking doomsday scenario. The Chinese had to limit the births in China due to over population.

    You never know what kind of child you’ll have. It may have series problems and make your life miserable. It may kill you due to its issues like mental health. Or it may make you crazy like it did to the mother who tried to bake her kids in an oven or to the mom who tried to drown hers. Heard of post pardem psychosis?

    I have relatives and friends that have been honest about how hard it is to have children and how they feel like they are existing simply for their child’s dreams…..not their own.

    It’s like parents are caged animals because they are prisoners of their children and can’t come and go as they please. I don’t want to be a slave to my biology. It’s nature’s way if continuing the species. But if we don’t curtail the population, we won’t have a species to continue. No one is saying it’s bad to have one child and even two. But it’s good that so many people don’t want children so that we can balance out the planets burden of overpopulation. Personally, I can see myself happier without children. I’ve just seen too many people who seem miserable because they lost out on their own hopes and dreams and now live as a caretaker for someone else. Someone who may inevitably hate them, ignire them, mooch and burden themz and even murder them some day. I dont want to risk my life over a roll of the dice. Luck isn’t always a lady when you’re getting lucky.

  • barbrabooey745

    Geez, I bet your also against homosexuality and transgender people too. You need to be more open minded and less judgmental.

  • Brenda Aceves

    “How is it at all logically possible to insist that you would not enjoy that which you have never had?”

    Really? how about if I tell you to have gay sex? You’ve never had it so how can you say you won’t enjoy it?

    get over yourself, it’s because of people like you self righteous assholes that the world is what it is today, overpopulated and at the brink of the next mass extinction.

  • Kevin Como

    “The world will go on if you decide not to have children. But if everyone decided to not have children, all hell would break loose.”

    Your entire article proves this is a lie. There are millions of people just like you who would choose to have children no matter what the childfree movement says. No matter what, there is no way that EVERYONE on the planet will choose not to have children. Your argument is simply impossible.

  • Charlie

    Regretting not having kids is vastly better than regretting having them

  • June

    “How is it at all logically possible to insist that you would not enjoy that which you have never had?”

    I’ve never had m’y leg broken or m’y vulva tear down by a watermelon sized thing but I’m pretty sure I won’t like it. It’s called being intelligent, instinctive and educated : grabbing information in order to make your mind and be careful.

  • Rippy

    I’m a childless by choice because i cannot afford a child, I can afford my cat and taking care of a big child like my fiance, but O_O I would rather be shot in the head than miss an Anime Convention or a Sci-Fi Con, you can’t do those with kids

  • Viola Modrá

    I am not sure the best way to react to a stupid and arrogant article insulting someone is to write a similarly stupid and arrogant article insulting someone else. Yet, the author apparently thought otherwise.

  • coytle

    I can honestly say that I would be unhappy with your life. I find the idea of having that many children absolutely disgusting. Do you honestly think that people who don’t have children are completely oblivious as to what is involved in child rearing? Were you really that stupid? Go ahead and delete my comment, if you do you further prove your intolerance of people who aren’t like you. I am glad that I feel fulfilled enough to not have to have multiple children to make up for my shortcomings.

  • Kristina

    Literally, this is all a matter of opinion and congrats on disagreeing, but your argument is biased and poorly put together. I take issue with you first argument. We know that doing drugs is bad without ever doing it. The same argument for drug use would be “how could you know that using drugs is bad if you’ve never tried it?” Another argument would be “how could you say having sex outside of marriage is wrong unless you tried it?” Saying that you’ve never done it so you shouldn’t have an opinion until you try is silly and in no way logical.

    Further, arguing that you parents or you might be lonely in their golden years is silly. That’s a personal problem and not even close to a good reason to create a life. Additionally, not every person living the child-free life is on welfare. Clearly, you think welfare is easy to get and spectacularly funded if you believe California is a plausible place to live. If you’re young, single, healthy, and childless good luck obtaining welfare. It’s easier to get if you have kids or a disability, but it’s still a challenge to obtain without help.

    If you’re going to argue for or against something at least know the basics. First many people who don’t want kids of their own would adopt or foster because those kids need help. Second, the world is overpopulated and we have limited resources. We can’t keep draining the world and expect to feed and water all of us as we breed incessantly. It’s not sustainable for everyone to have 16 kids each. 2 kids, 1 for each parent, is the ideal if you are gung-ho about reproduction. I’m basing this on current science not personal opinion. Have a fine day and in the future do research instead of rambling online because people don’t agree with your lifestyle choice.

  • Jamie

    “How can you like something you have never tried?” I hear this one all the time. Here’s the thing: if I try a strange food and don’t like it, I can put it down or get rid of it. Hard to do with a kid. And WRONG.

    • Meri Da

      my answer to that is….eat some dog poo? but why not? how do you know it isnt good for you? its the same with kids!

  • Jamie

    I also LOVE that its OK to be childLESS and not childFREE. So if I wanted a parasitic organism attached to my body, but couldn’t have one, and felt terrible for the rest of my life that’d be okay.

  • Jamie

    And you’re not AT ALL concerned about your wife’s health, being that she has 16 kids???? I mean, 16??? Her vajay has got to look like a mashed potato…i know mine would!

  • Jamie

    OMGLOL…Laughable!!!!! This article is the PERFECT EXAMPLE of what it’s like to be Child-free…you hear it ALL!!!!

  • Chris

    This entire article is a non sequitor LMAO. Title: “We Look Down on the Child Free Ideology and We’re not Sorry”. But in his last paragraph THE FIRST SENTENCE SAYS: “Wendy and I don’t look down on people for having no children, but we can’t help ourselves with the ideology that these more radical “Child Free” folks espouse.” So what if someone doesn’t tell you either way because that’s a pointless conversation? You’re just going to strawman and pretend to know their life?

    “Anti-people perspective”. FUCKIN WHAT?? Anti-people would be like a serial killer or a Nazi lol not a person that doesn’t have children. People that choose not to have children have more time for social interaction, dafuck? “anti-people” my ass, this dumbshit sounds more “anti-people” for admitting he looks down on others for their personal choices. Bigotry, plain and simple.

  • Gas Bucket

    Better to regret not having children than to regret having them.

  • Jaiden Everett

    The only reasons for having children are because they are wanted and will be loved. Anything else is misguided or just plain wrong.

    ISIS is an ideology. Childfree is a choice. Try not to mix them up again.

  • ryan

    “How is it at all logically possible to insist that you would not enjoy that which you have never had?” Well…I’ve never had double pneumonia, diptheria, or a hemorrhagic fever, but I can insist to hell and back that I wouldn’t enjoy them. Spending eighteen plus years erasing my own identity to focus completely on wiping asses, paying for doctors appointments, dealing with school drama, and being perpetually broke sounds roughly as enjoyable.

    “Most parents will agree that children made them much less self-absorbed, selfish, self-centered, and the like.” You can say that, but ’tis not so my friend. Try telling this to ANYONE who was raised in an abusive household. Hell, just look at this article and you can see that parents can very much be self centered.

    “We just can’t help ourselves sometimes” Read: We have poor self-control and aren’t emotionally meture enough to understand how people can make choices that differ from ours.

    ” They even admitted to depression, loneliness and immense sadness. “I want a grandchild so badly,” the gentleman said, tears in his eyes.” This is a guilt trip, with some really pathetic nuances to it. If your psychological wellbeing is so dependant on whether someone makes the same ‘traditional’ choice you did, YOU have issues. Not them. Parents and grandparents do not own their children and the choices they make.

    “There is hard truth here: you will grow old” Yup. I will. And I will do so with the knowledge that I was happy with my choices and that I was the badass uncle that played Pokemon Asphalt with his nieces and nephews and got on their parents’ nerves because I bought them all the really annoying toys they really wanted for christmas and birthdays.

    “Life will come full circle, and you will most likely realize that life was what mattered most of all.” Yes, life is what matters. My life, my choices. Intentionally going down a path I did not want would be my regret.

    “The world will go on if you decide not to have children. But if everyone decided to not have children, all hell would break loose.” Well, yes…but not everyone is going to be childfree. Despite what you seem to think, most childfree folks just want to live lives without kids and are fine with other people choosing to procreate (there are antinatalists of course, but there are extremists in every group…like the author of this depressingly stereotypical little article)

    “The Child Free ideology encourages a cultural shift that would result in world devastation.” This is what’s known in the biz as the Slippery Slope fallacy, combined with the Appeal to Emotion fallacy, the Cherry Picking fallacy, and the be all end all of Things Thou Shall Not Do To Present An Argument: Use fox news as a source. This whole article is chock full of catastrophizing really, but this is just the easiest way to point it out. Childfree philosophy just means the right to say ‘no, I don’t want to have kids’ without being harassed by people who can’t seem to understand that there are those who just aren’t into parenthood. This sort of ‘NEW IDEA LEAD TO END OF SOCIETY, MUST BURN!’ attitude has been around forever, and it isn’t any truer here than it has been in the past.

    “We actually see little “freedom” for those — like these authors — who are knotted up with the idea that their lives will be better without children.” Your lives may not be better without children, but that does not in any way give you the right to say that OTHER people’s lives are worse for not having children. You are the arbitrator of what other people do with their reproductive systems. It is not your place. It never has been and it never will be, and tossing the kind of vitriolic condescension you’re veritably overflowing with isn’t going to help your cause.

    TL,DR: Your arguments are laughably full of holes. Just because you want kids does not give you the right to judge people that don’t. Childfree people don’t want to stop everyone from having kids, we just want to go about our childless lives without being harassed like you’re so fond of doing.

  • Hmm, I wonder what would happen if ::everyone:: decided to have 16 children? To which other planet do you propose the human species should expand? As far as we’re aware, there aren’t any in our near neighbourhood that would actually support carbon-based life forms. Do you seriously believe that Earth’s resources are infinite, to cope with such exponential growth in the human population? And what about all the other animals who rely upon our shared environment for their own survival – do they even matter in your worldview?

    You seem to be suggesting that people who “think” they don’t want children should just have them and see how it turns out. What a great idea! Except if those people turn out to be abusive and/or neglectful towards their children. Do you have a societal contingency plan for such failed experiments?

    I am more inclined to think that having children is not a life path to be undertaken if one has ::any:: real doubts about wanting to be a parent. Sure, I might die alone in an aged-care hostel; but let’s be honest here – that might happen whether I have children or not. I spend time with my own mother in an aged-care home and I can assure you, the place is never swarming with visiting relatives. I have never felt any strong desire to be a parent, in the same way I have no strong desire to be a heart surgeon or an astronaut; and frankly, I would much rather regret ::not:: having children than run the risk that with my lack of maternal feelings, I might regret having them and grow to resent them, once it’s much too late to change my mind.

  • Christopher Furlong

    I guess the author got a taste of how breeders act around those without children. That “childfree” lady really trolled her good. Unfortunately, she is not wise enough to see it for what it is: tit for tat. Not cool. She should rescind this article immediately and realize this issue is none of her business.

  • Bex Cavendish

    Nice try. I’m 44 , no kids, female. I absolutely love my life. I love kids when I come across them, they are amusing. I can see why some are so intrigued with their own offspring. I get it. But I have bigger fish to fry. love and kisses breeders.

  • Very good article.

  • Bex Cavendish

    I wrote this on another weird anti-non having children post. The Dalai lama, Mother Theresa and countless other spiritually in -tune humans don’t have children. You suggest that there is no other way, no other way to know peace nor happiness. I’m not a saint but I will tell you that I have spiritual awareness that rivals yours and I am feeling that you live in a box. A wee little box that this is only this and that is only that.

  • To me the Child free movement is full of losers!!!

  • Gizzy Lerms

    I’d be more concerned if *everyone* decided to have 16 children than everyone between the ages of 28-32 decided not to have kids.

    Could you imagine what shit the world would be if everyone made the same egocentric choice as YOU idiots?

  • VisionAri

    As I sat in yet another mission meeting at church last week, I couldn’t help but notice that every single one of the dozen participants either had grown children or no children… which is pretty much the case with *everything* that involves more than bringing the occasional covered dish.

    But please, do go on about how what you’re doing is such a boon for the world.

  • Raquel Koviak

    I think you may have misunderstood the childfree movement. No intelligent person actually thinks everyone should stop having kids, our entire species would die out. The movement for that is called the “Voluntary Human Extinction Movement”, or VHEMT. You should give that one a go in your next response.
    Less radical childfree people just believe that parenthood should be a calling, those who want to should do it, and those who don’t should not be shamed for their choices. I don’t think that is unreasonable.
    The only real issue I have with your reasoning is the expectation that children must take care of their parents when they get old. Many kids are born with disabilities that require 24/7 attention, for their entire life. Some children grow up in loving homes, only to end up incarcerated, terminally ill, or to cut off contact with their parents. They might even just be too busy with their own life to bother to call. After they turn 18, their life is totally up to them, and if they don’t want to provide grandkids that’s just too bad.

  • Robbie

    Honestly, I was expecting a lot more from this article as a rebuttal, but nope! Congratulations on perpetuating the stereotypical ignorant “breeders” image those of us who have kids get flack for. You’re not doing parents any favors with this slop.

  • JulianandHeather Law

    Good article. I do not see anywhere where her article merits such extreme responses. I see articles that are deliberately inflammatory and extremist, and crickets. I really don’t see the problem with this article. I enjoyed it.

    • susan

      It’s poorly written. It’s full of straw man arguments and false analogies. Even if I had kids, I’d feel the same way about this article.

  • Karen

    16 kids? What is she a clown car or something? Yes the world does go on when people decide to not have children, but you decided to take the time to write a terrible article about it. Good grief, 16 I just can’t imagine all the resources that goes towards them.

  • Katy Tearle

    To quote from the article… “How is it at all logically possible to insist that you would not enjoy that which you have never had?”

    That is, quite frankly, the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. Giving birth and raising children is not like deciding you don’t like broccoli because you’ve never tried it. You can’t have a child, decide you’re not keen on parenting, and take it back.

  • susan

    ‘Glass needs to “hold back the vomit” whenever she sees a woman like Wendy’

    But isn’t the author of this piece guilty of the same thing?

    • Samalia Poteete

      No. He’s talking about Childfree people who whine that “breeders” are forcing their lifestyles on them. But turn around and do the same thing

  • susan

    I’m 39, childfree, and my husband and I intend to remain so. I have several problems with this article but I haven’t the time to address them all in one sitting. But here are a few that are troubling:

    1) “There is hard truth here: you will grow old. Your days of travel will become burdensome, your days of work will retire, your friends and family will die, and your life will sunset. Perhaps you will have your mate — as our new friends at Applebees had each other — but that union, too, will end.”

    This argument is just simply false. Having children is no guarantee that they will take care of you when you’re old. Rifts, often irreparable, can occur between parents and children. Parents with living children can still die alone in a nursing home. But whether you have children or you don’t, if you maintain good family relationships, if you maintain close friendships (and cultivate new ones), you will minimize the chances of being alone as you grow older.

    2) “We got to know each other. They were both retired teachers who had one daughter who lived in another state. When we shared with them that we had 16 children, they got a bit vulnerable. They shared with us that they had one child, and that one child — now married and in her thirties — had no desire to have children.

    The couple was very honest about their disappointment. They even admitted to depression, loneliness and immense sadness. ‘I want a grandchild so badly,’ the gentleman said, tears in his eyes.”

    I’m sorry, but no sale. This story sounds so made-up. But even if it’s true, if this couple truly loved their daughter, they’d want the best for her and they would respect her wishes and her choices. I hate to say this, but your children don’t owe you grandchildren.

    3) “The world will go on if you decide not to have children. But if everyone decided to not have children, all hell would break loose….This should seem rather obvious, don’t you think? The human race would cease to exist.”

    No, this is a straw man argument–a logical fallacy. It’s a straw man argument because not everyone thinks this way and most couples still want to have children. It simply isn’t true because a greater threat to the human race (and indeed the planet) is overpopulation.

    4) ” We actually see little ‘freedom’ for those — like these authors — who are knotted up with the idea that their lives will be better without children.”

    Again, this is a straw man argument. If you truly don’t want children of your own then your life is better without them.

    • Shel

      Look nobody cares if you don’t breed. What he’s trying to do is WARN you. You are missing out on the most beautiful thing you could ever experience. Period. This guy is trying to help people who have chosen to inflict their anger on themselves.

  • Contrary Mary

    The real problem is that everyone believes they have a right to force their lifestyles, now matter what it may be, down everyone’s throat. Live and let live and quit forcing your lifestyle decisions on each other.

  • RabbitWarrior

    Basically some of us do not breed in captivity. If this causes cultural problems perhaps it would be a good thing, because the monied elites that actually OWN this country, and let’s be clear they have OWNED it since the days of Andrew Jackson, need a vast working class to milk for wealth.

    Our society is a human farm…we are “human resources” to the plutocrats who run things…mere chattel.

    Neither my husband, nor myself wanted to bring a child into this world, especially not an intelligent, sensitive child,who would end up being ground down and used by the establishment as a serf.
    NOT on my watch.

    • Shel

      Then start your own business and quite being a serf.

  • Meri Da

    How is it at all logically possible to insist that you would not enjoy that which you have never had?

    i INSIST you try eating dog poo. oh no? why? how do you know it isnt good for you until you’ve eaten some?

    2. Individually, Child Free Has Problems… “i want a grandchild so badly.” ‘truth is you WILL get old’ ‘life is what matters most of all’

    well…fk you. adopt something! we did NOT ask to be born. we were brought here against our will. we do NOT owe anyone to anyone else. want another young’un in the house? go to the orphanage! its that simple! you WANT therefore you are selfish.

    there is assisted dying & wills to write before you lose your mind. the government takes care of you, child or no child. get over it.

    this life has no meaning. the eternal life with jesus does. he’s all that matters. jesus is child free…& yes he is real. we have his actual blood as proof. check out ron wyatt tel lthe 7th day adventists to shut up. their lies have decimated him. he is NOT adventist. he is NOT rich. he’s NOT anything those guys say he is. (one main reason why im EX 7da…..messianics? much better & 90 percent the same biblical faith.) oh paul is another CF person in the NT bible. by the way jesus warns against having children in the last days…twice & says the last days started in his time. read mattew & luke & pay attention to the words in red. ‘who to those who give suck.’ ‘do not weep for me but weep for those with children in the terrible last days’ (words may vary slightly due to different versions.)

    3. Culturally, Child Free Is Catastrophic “if everyone stopped having kids, the human race would end”

    ‘grumpy cat: GOOD!” pic inserted here. that means the sooner jesus can come back & the sooner the saved ones can have immortal life. no need for more in this miserable world.

    check out the book ‘the great controversy’ for more info.

    • Meri Da

      ‘whoa to those who give suck’….

    • IdortMasterClass

      Yeah, when your first point can be leveled out the gate, you know you’re in for a good time

    • stellabystarlite

      Yup. There are enough women having kids willfully or against their will that those who choose to abstain from this are only a good thing.

  • guest

    Dear Chris,

    Statistically, approximately 1 in 5 children die before their parents do. And this figure does not even include stillbirths/miscarriages. So, if the statistics hold true (and they have for just about every parent I know with larger families, and many with smaller families), then you and your wife are in for a LOT of heartbreak as time goes on. Personally, I would rather die all alone in a nursing home than deal with that kind of emotional devastation.

    Have a nice day, Earth-destroying super-breeder.

    Sincerely,
    Jane

    • Samalia Poteete

      Dear Jane,
      Are you a little child? That was the most childish thing I’ve heard so far. Death is a unfortunate and tragic event. But don’t give some pussy excuse of death being a issue. Your pet could die before you. Does that mean you are Pet Free now? Your friends will die, does that mean you are FriendFree? That argument is pretty irrelevant. If you want to be a lonely spinster fine. Most women don’t do AMAZING things in their lives to make history. So go ahead and be a scared lonely wimp.
      Have a nice day Lonely Earth Destroying Spinster.
      Not Sincerely Me.

  • guest

    Or maybe, Chris, you just don’t care about your children as individuals. Maybe having all those kids is just an ego trip, or an attempt to build some kind of Christian army, like the Duggars. In which case, never mind the statistics included in my previous comment, because they wouldn’t matter to you. After all, if the stats hold true, you can always just make some more kids, right? (Well, you can, but your wife probably won’t be able to after what you’ve put her body through). Again, have a nice day 🙂

  • Emily Dotson

    And yet studies show that having children is the most damaging thing that can happen to a person. Science says it’s more traumatic than the death of your partner or a divorce. I’m going to stick with science instead of your opinion.

    And the primary reason why childfree people feel the need to shit on you as a breeder is because you breeders shit on us first. I know people who are child-free, old, and happy, so you’re assuming that children are either fulfilling enough to last you through your days, or that your children will actually stick around, show up, etc. In my experience, kids don’t want to be burdened by old parents. They don’t stay.

    • Larry_Sanger

      “Science” says no such thing. Science is incapable of making such value judgments. That is just an ideological/philosophical conclusion drawn from, no doubt, a few studies that do not consider the full breadth of relevant argumentation and data.

      Whether you know it or not, you are doing philosophy—not science—when you conclude, “having children is the most damaging thing that can happen to a person.” This is because “damage” is a value-laden term, and science is not capable by itself of ruling about what ought to be considered “damage” or not. That is a matter for religion and philosophy. And you’re doing bad philosophy, because no self-respecting philosopher would rest such a conclusion on vague hand-waving references to “science” rather than a full evaluation of all the relevant considerations.

      • Overtaxed

        Your twisting words here to obscure Emily’s point. Surveys do show that having a child is a traumatic event for most people, akin to that of losing a partner or parent in the emotional impact on someone’s life. Does this mean it’s not valuable? No, not at all. But it does mean that people should go into it eye’s wide open; particularly those who’ve been with partners for a long time and established a life together. A child will totally change your relationship, for some better, for others (and likely most) worse. Yes, you may forge an incredible bond/love for your child, but research shows that will come at a cost, namely some of the love for your partner.

        • Larry_Sanger

          Again, it’s utterly ridiculous to assert that “surveys show” that having a child is “traumatic.” As anyone with the slightest acquaintance of the methodology of social science knows, surveys are incapable of showing such a thing. First of all, what people say about themselves is frequently not reliable. Second, it is doubtless a conclusion you (or someone) draws from the surveys, that they “show that having a child is a traumatic event for most people.” More importantly than any of that, the claim is bizarre on its face. We all know many parents of many children. How many of them seem to have been “traumatized” by having children? I can’t think of one. And finally, the claim is extremely vague. Traumatized how? For how long? At what point in the act of parenting? It’s easy to admit that every parent gets extremely upset by something having to do with their children at some point. What of it? Life itself is traumatic in exactly the same vague way.

          That’s not science at all. That’s philosophizing, and it’s bad philosophizing at that.

          By the way, if the point is that child-free couples are happier, well, maybe if they stay together. But I’m seeing some online references to studies that say that couples without children are more likely to get divorced. Let’s compare happiness levels of couples with and without children when the people have been married after 20 or 30 years. That seems more relevant. Of course, the same problem comes up again: What counts as “happiness”? How is this to be operationalized?

          One last point. The original and still predominant purpose of marriage as an institution is to provide a stable environment for the growing of new human beings, i.e., for the renewal of the human race. Let’s suppose that you’re right that child-free marriages are happier than child-full marriages, on average. While that’s not very plausible, it might be true. Nevertheless, it’s hardly a count against having children that they make marriage less happy; that’s sort of like saying that transporting a lot of children will cause more wear and tear to a school bus. Yes, it will. Is that a reason not to transport children in a school bus? No, it isn’t. That’s what school buses are for.

          • B.B.

            If the bus lacks the room to accommodate the transportation of children safely, that would be a plausible scenario to either build another school and rezone for population control, or deal with lack of funding and resources and watch the community turn to garbage.

            Look up the statistics on pregnancy and infidelity. You’re in the dark, old man.

        • Larry_Sanger

          Well, you know what they say about statistics…

          It appears that couples with children stay together at a much higher rate: “The divorce rate among couples with children is 40 percent lower than couples without children.”

          https://www.mckinleyirvin.com/Family-Law-Blog/2012/October/32-Shocking-Divorce-Statistics.aspx

          Perhaps the reason that unmarried couples survey “happier” is that the unhappy ones tend to get divorced more.

    • Shel

      My you are angry. You were a child once with parents, remember?

  • stellabystarlite

    What tripe. No one owes their parents grandchildren. You have to let your kids live their own lives. What, should people have kids out of guilt? Ridiculous.

    • BBBEE25TEE

      Sadly some people had kids out of guilt and being pressured by family members.

    • Shel

      That’s why you should have more than one, because you may get an oddball.

      • stellabystarlite

        What in the fucking shit does that have to do with my comment…fuck off.

        • Shel

          my you are an angry little barren womb thing aren’t you?

      • Shel

        It means if a parent gets a nasty barren womb child like yourself, then their other children can still give them grandchildren.

    • Shel

      certainly no one wants you to breed, you are an angry little devil.

  • Jan Geisler

    I’ve never had cancer but i’m betting i’d enjoy it as little if not more then having a kid. Honestly i’m more disturbed by the fact people still condone having more then 2 kids anymore with the way this world is going *smh* I could never be so cruel as to force others (which having kids does in all honesty) to live in this world full of hate and anger and lack of properly renewable resources.

    • Larry_Sanger

      You’ve never had cancer or children, and yet you think it is clever to say that you’d rather have cancer than children.

      You appear to be little more than a child yourself. Of course you shouldn’t be having children.

      • Jan Geisler

        well we can’t all be …what are you 80? lol. But I do happen to be full time caregiver of my g’mother who has cancer and is dying, so I do think I know which i’d prefer 😛

        • Larry_Sanger

          What an appalling thing to say, then. I wonder what your poor grandmother (who gave birth to one of your parents, so that you could be born and take care of her in her old age) would say if you told her, “I’d rather have cancer than children.”

  • WreckTom

    Having kids is not something you try on for size and decide if you like it or not, so the whole point of insisting that anyone may or may not like something they never tried is moot.

    How can you say you hate oysters if you’ve never had them? Good, have one right now. Oh god this is like eating a wad of snot, awful, I’ll never have an oyster again. Good, more for me. That is a possibility.

    How can you say you wouldn’t love parenting if you’ve never had a child? Ya that’s true, let me have one right now. Oh god this is awful, I’m tapping out. Guess what? You can’t.

    Everyone has kids. It’s very easy to see how they handle it, if they like it, what they tell you it’s like, and whether or not you would actually like it or not.

    “Well it’s different when they are your kids”

    LOL, no it’s fucking not any different. If you can’t look at other people and pull your own conclusions on whether or not the life they chose would suit your personality and way of life, you’re a fucking moron.

    I’m not interested in children, I like them because they are funny and cute, sure, but at the end of the day, having children with me 24/7 would not make me happy. It doesn’t take a genius to figure this out, and it also doesn’t take a genius to figure out how parenting affects personality, and leads to hilarious blog post by disgruntled parents trying to convince no one but themselves that having kids is the best thing ever.

    So much, in fact, that instead of lauding their own life to make it shine through and drive their point home, they would rather point fingers at the people who chose a different path, perfectly embodying the reason why the people they are denouncing chose that way of life instead in the first place.

    Quite the irony. Anyways, have fun, bloggy blog blog

    • BBBEE25TEE

      Agree 100%

    • Rippy

      I agree with you…also as someone who went through the Special Ed department as a child, I was told by teachers, we’re not supposed to be parents. And I take that to heart. a Sp.Ed. is not supposed to have children

  • Chris Jeub and @Larry_Sanger:disqus I’m on your side, but when I saw this I laughed a little and thought of the ongoing battle here. Trying to lighten the mood. http://jalopnik.com/5724684/virginia-dmv-revokes-worlds-greatest-license-plate

    _Edited because I also want to acknowledge our host._

    • Larry_Sanger

      LOL

  • Rippy

    I’m a Childless by CHoice because I want to have a life, you can’t go to conventions, you can’t read books you like, you have to be tied down, you have bills coming out your ears if Junior or Missy are sick! While I just have to take of one person, ME! I’m 36, TOO old to be a mommy, too old to be carrying a BABY around on my hip. I work 40 hours a week, I”m on vacation very rarely and since when would have have time? I’m not religious, I don’t have the ideas because I’m not interested. What’s wrong with my hobbies? What’s wrong with not really wanting to be tied down to a commitment that means it will ruin my career, having a kid means I can’t do what i like, I can’t read books, I can’t go to conventions, I’m going to be stuck…it isn’t right have a parent telling me, “Oh its so fulfilling to be a mommy,” yeah, for them, also I was a SP.ED kid, a Special Ed kid, the stigma is there by the way, never left, Sp.Eds can’t have kids!

    • Samalia Poteete

      Pretty sure the writer didn’t tie you down and started having men impregnate you so calm down. I was Childfree by Choice for a couple of years. Now I’m almost 25 and I want a husband with kids. There’s nothing wrong with you being a career woman. If that makes you happy do you. But how “Childish” are you to think that when you become a parent ALL fun things you enjoy go out the window. Sucks for you that you work so much and can’t take a vacation. Guess you have to do what mothers do and MAKE time right?

      • guest

        Samalia, anyone who has kids now is pretty stupid and SELFISH, SELFISH, SELFISH. We’re on the brink of NUCLEAR World War III.

        • Samalia Poteete

          Lol calm your ass down. When are we not on the brink of some type of war. Anyone who thinks their opinion is law is stupid and CHILDISH, CHILDISH CHILDISH. You want to be childfree fine. I don’t look down or am condescending towards those choices. But don’t turn your nose up at people who decide to be parents lol

        • Samalia Poteete

          Ah fear mongering. Maybe you should move to a different planet? You’re pretty idiotic and CHILDISH, CHILDISH, CHILDISH. Be a old lonely spencer lol who really cares. You’re already a lonely, irrational, and bitter hag in the making

    • Shel

      Nobody wants you to do anything. The writer is simply giving you a warning. When you’re 80 years old, alone, and dying with no family. It’s pretty sad.

  • Ex Machina

    Quite frankly, I’m getting increasingly annoyed with this barren, offensive, provocative rhetoric, newly introduced to the already chaotic world of the Internet (I’ve read at least 3-4 similar pieces within the past six months)… What is the matter with you ardent adherents of parenting lately? Are you planning on establishing some new religious sect or something and you feel compelled to saturate the Web with these ridiculous manifestos? Or is it the fact, that no-one will bother reading your little essays unless they are inundated with controversy? Or is it maybe that insecure people like you are no longer in a position to legally attack other social groups, because of their origin, color, religion, sexual orientation etc. and you need to invent some “social target” in order to “battle” any form of diversity, which you feel poses a threat to your social identity? All this “zeal” (or should I call it fanaticism?) which you exhibit implies the existence of a hang-up, at best…

    Whatever your reason, pal, the fact is that you are in no position to look down on anything or anyone… I’m afraid you possess no such power or authority. A person who advertises the ‘products of his genitalia’ in such a tacky way in an attempt to foment discord among people and to create a debate out of nothing, dares to accuse others of “childish” behavior?! I know 15-year-olds, who can produce a maturer piece of writing than the one above… It would be really easy for me to start refuting your simplistic arguments, one by one, but at the end of the day you are not worthy of my time. But here’s a general thought – what if readers would stop replying to such insulting posts (a tactic which merely improves the authors’ websites’ traffic statistics) and start seeking additional, more formal means to tackle the unaccountability (and not freedom) of any weirdo with an access to a monitor and a keyboard? Internet users have the right to enjoy a navigation protected from those who lack expert knowledge and yet feel the need to criticize other people’s lives. Seriously, with 16 kids is this really the best hobby you could come up with?
    P-L-E-A-S-E!!!

  • Bellers S

    The only thing I can say is that you can’t assume that your life experiences are going to echo another. You speak as though your experience as a parent is the collective experience of all parents. There are people out there who regret having children. There are people out there who resent their children. These are otherwise loving parents who hide their regret and resentment. They would tell a childless person to not have children, that it would be the worst mistake of their life even while you present an opposing view point.

    IMO the most important thing is for everyone to do what feels best for them.

  • kate nick

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  • trashmaster

    “”””Let me put it to you this way. Throwing a water bottle into a lake isn’t going to rot out the lake. However, we choose not to litter because if everyone littered, it would rot out the lake. The drain on the environment would put us out of whack.

    This is why I say Child Free ideology is crazy. It’s like encouraging a Littering Day. What if I brushed off the harms of littering in my marketing, researched pro-littering resources to encourage others to be fine with littering? Don’t judge me just because I litter, I’d rebut. “I don’t clean up very well, it’s just how I am.””””

    Okay, dipshit. More children = more people = more litter = destroy planet. So you’re saying that NOT contributing to the amount of people destroying our planet is the same as making a conscious decision to trash the enviornment. Wonder how much trash you and your 16 kids produce.

  • B.B.

    I hope he has enough money for 16 college educations without resorting to crowd funding. Something just screams “Duggar” about this family.

  • B.B.

    Notice the similarities between the Jeub and Duggar fundies? Research the homeschooling curriculum. Utterly shocking and intellectually disabling. This is so the children do not break away from the cult. They can’t without real world knowledge and skills. That is the point. Chained by religion and parents. Emotionally and intellectually stunted by their own “loving” parents who needed a cult to endure real life.

  • B.B.

    Gothard found his way into the homes of lost parents desperate for meaning and purpose, and those who are afraid of death and the unknown of continuing existence. Same as Scientology, same as extreme Hasidic Judaism, same as any other religious organization preying on the lost and fearful.

  • Shel

    Hey I was one of these fools. I was as full of hate as they are, hate towards “breeding”. They are making a huge mistake. I didn’t realize what a mistake it was until I had a baby at age 40. Then another at age 45. They are the most beautiful thing I have ever experienced. I almost ruined my life. Their choice is often anger being directed at themselves. In India they call it “happiness of children”… those who don’t have this, have bad karma.

    • susan

      Shel, please understand that not all of us are full of hate towards breeding. there are hose of us who have simply decided that parenting for us. I simply never had any interest in becoming a mom. My husband has no interest in being a dad.

      • Shel

        No problem Susan, it’s good to know some aren’t so full of hate (I was) … but if you only knew what you are missing…it’s 24/7 being in love. I just wish to warn, especially a female, not to make this big big big mistake.

  • Rachel

    Society tends to judge women who don’t have children FAR more harshly than men who don’t become fathers. So it’s pretty likely he doesn’t understand WHY this is far more devastating for you – because society hasn’t beat it into his head for 27 years that the best, most wonderful thing that can happen to you is to become a mother. With men, the expectations are more on having a brilliant career and earning a lot of money – sad to say, but even here in 2016, this is still true. Meanwhile – for the past few weeks, it’s been non-stop “Celebrate Mother’s Day” advertisements in your face – I’ve had three strangers wish me a Happy Mother’s Day already (I also was unable to have children) – and you’re just supposed to suck it up and not let it bother you because “they don’t MEAN to be insensitive.” You’re supposed to be happy for every pregnant relative and contribute to every baby shower at work with a smile on your face. It sucks. Now, I’m planning to travel to Ukraine in order to become a mother. I research and find all possible information about it reproductive center. They have more than acceptable prices and tons of positive reviews. Well, I set my heart to Ukraine and hope they are improving their reputation.

  • Serene Meadow

    Hmm, first of all Amy Glass sounds like a miserable human being who for some reason only respects women who work for strangers as opposed to those who work for husband or family. This piece comes off defensive, though. Why does anyone have to look down on another’s reproductive decisions? It seems to be a great way to alienate possible friends (and present yourself as a collosal jerk). This author and Amy Glass are two sides of the same coin. Is it so far fetched to be happy for what makes another feel fulfilled, be it backpacking or having 16 kids?